How much animal protein is too much?

About (not) consuming fresh raw fish and fresh raw egg yolks
Terence
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How much animal protein is too much?

Postby Terence » Wed 25 Apr 2007 14:45

I upped my intake of animal protein to 150 - 200 grams per day (with good results). It´s often heard that too much protein is harmful for our bodies. From my feeling I would say that high protein intake is perfect! Of course, all animal food is raw. I generally don´t count protein from plant food because it is very inferior, IMO.

RRM and all others, what do you think of such a high protein intake? Are there any proofs that it could be harmful in the long-run?

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Re: How much animal protein is too much?

Postby RRM » Wed 25 Apr 2007 15:22

Terence wrote:I upped my intake of animal protein to 150 - 200 grams per day (with good results)
Thats not that high.
Protein is energy and protein supplies building blocks composing new cells and neurotransmitters.
Animal foods are nutrient dense and easy to digest.
Thats is why you feel good.
It´s often heard that too much protein is harmful for our bodies. From my feeling I would say that high protein intake is perfect!
Im not saying its too much regarding health.
It may be too much for your skin though, or not.
I generally don´t count protein from plant food because it is very inferior, IMO.
Not necessarily true.
Take a look at protein quality of different foods at this page:
http://www.13.waisays.com/protein.htm
Brazil nuts have better protein quality than any animal food, and peaches and figs have a better protein quality than beef (though containing far less protein in total)
RRM and all others, what do you think of such a high protein intake? Are there any proofs that it could be harmful in the long-run?
Its not extremely high. Compared to the sample diet its high.
The longest living animals on this planet (non-fish eating whales, sea turtles, elephants) have a relatively low protein intake. Pure predators dont live as long.
The reason: unlike carbs and fats, protein also contains nitrogen, which needs to be converted into toxic ammonium and ureum subsequently. This nitrogen load correlates with longevity.
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Postby avalon » Wed 25 Apr 2007 19:07

RRM wrote:
Brazil nuts have better protein quality than any animal food,
Is this true? I thought the egg was the Holy Grail of protein, by which all other proteins are compared.
Terence
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Re: How much animal protein is too much?

Postby Terence » Wed 25 Apr 2007 20:46

RRM wrote:
Terence wrote:I generally don´t count protein from plant food because it is very inferior, IMO.
Not necessarily true.
Take a look at protein quality of different foods at this page:
http://www.13.waisays.com/protein.htm
Brazil nuts have better protein quality than any animal food, and peaches and figs have a better protein quality than beef (though containing far less protein in total)
You seem to be very convinced by todays science. I´m sure that we are still far away from the ability to get the whole picture. We should place much more emphasis on body signals than values in databases. Don´t you think that our bodies can give more precise answers than any nutrient table?
RRM wrote:The longest living animals on this planet (non-fish eating whales, sea turtles, elephants) have a relatively low protein intake. Pure predators dont live as long.
The reason: unlike carbs and fats, protein also contains nitrogen, which needs to be converted into toxic ammonium and ureum subsequently. This nitrogen load correlates with longevity.
Yes, that was my concern, too. But maybe this is just theory?

Thanks for your input!

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Postby RRM » Thu 26 Apr 2007 20:39

avalon wrote:I thought the egg was the Holy Grail of protein, by which all other proteins are compared.
Yes, you are right in the sense that for many years, protein quality of foods was calculated by comparing their amino acid balance to that of egg white protein amino acid balance. The less a food deviated from egg white's amino acid balance, the higher was its 'protein quality'.
More recently they realised that this does not make any sense at all, as egg white's amino acid profile does not in any way resemble human amino acid requirements.
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Re: How much animal protein is too much?

Postby RRM » Thu 26 Apr 2007 20:46

Terence wrote:You seem to be very convinced by todays science.
Im very much aware of the flaws in today's science.
Don´t you think that our bodies can give more precise answers than any nutrient table?
not always.
For example; if you ingest opioid peptides, you may feel ' a hunger' that is not real, in the sense that it does not reflect your true energy requirments.
Also, if you lack a certain nutrient, your appetite may be increased as well, and also the availability of specific neurotransmitters very much influence your mood and how 'your body feels', as does cholesterol and glucose.
So, we cannot just assume our body 'doesnt lie', as we need to have everything else right first, which can be very tricky.

Also, we do have some insight regarding how much of every amino acid we roughly need, so that its very much possible to state that some plant foods (Brazil nuts) have a far better protein quality than most animal foods.
Yes, that was my concern, too. But maybe this is just theory?
Its an observation.
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Postby avalon » Fri 27 Apr 2007 01:06

RRM wrote:
More recently they realised that this does not make any sense at all, as egg white's amino acid profile does not in any way resemble human amino acid requirements.
Okay, who are 'they' and so, do Brazil nuts resemble Human amino acid requirements better? Can you post links to this? Very interested.
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Postby RRM » Sun 29 Apr 2007 18:53

avalon wrote:do Brazil nuts resemble Human amino acid requirements better? Can you post links to this?
All the calculations are based on comparisons with the different estimates of human requirements. Not on comparisons with Brazil nut amino acid composition.
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Postby avalon » Sun 29 Apr 2007 22:25

Okay thanx. :D
summerwave
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protein and fat

Postby summerwave » Sat 27 Feb 2010 23:06

I was looking at:

http://www.13.waisays.com/protein.htm

and simultaneously trying to find the postings on here about eating fat and protein in concert. (Isn't there discussion about how this is either a) optimal; or b) necessary for protein metabolism?) I can't remember... Some of the more casual postings have to do with taking raw yolks with a bit of oil (I think that was Oscar)...

If there is some reason, could it be spliced into the above article on the Wai site?

I eat enough fat; I eat it with raw protein; I just can't remember the reason I think RRM gave for doing so (and why). I have just been wondering, and also feeling it would be a valuable sidebar to the FAQs on protein on the site.
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Re: protein and fat

Postby RRM » Sun 28 Feb 2010 18:50

summerwave wrote: I eat enough fat; I eat it with raw protein; I just can't remember the reason I think RRM gave for doing so (and why).
I dont remember having said that.
In my opinion, you can perfectly consume meat without any additional fat.
(many high protein foods are also high in fat)
If you combine protein and carbs, thats also okay, as glucose stimulates the uptake of amino acids,
preventing the conversion of amino acids into energy.

I now vaguely remember having said something about consuming sufficient energy with protein,
as that prevents the conversion of protein into energy.
Both glucose and fatty acids have this effect.
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Postby Kookaburra » Thu 20 May 2010 04:03

I realized that the thread starter's question was not answered. How much animal protein is too much? I would also like to know what is the minimum amount of animal protein required for a 22 year old male? I plan on consuming the minimum as I read that redundant protein leads to nitrogen overload.
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Postby RRM » Thu 20 May 2010 18:29

Kookaburra wrote:I realized that the thread starter's question was not answered. How much animal protein is too much?
That obviously differs per person.
It depends on your conditions, and on what you want.
I would also like to know what is the minimum amount of animal protein required for a 22 year old male?
That depends on your weight, on how much protein is used for energy,
and on the quality of the protein that you consume.
What foods do you eat normally? (and how much?)
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Postby Kookaburra » Fri 21 May 2010 03:35

That depends on your weight, on how much protein is used for energy,
and on the quality of the protein that you consume.
What foods do you eat normally? (and how much?)
I weigh about 45kg. I always eat animal protein before I sleep so I don't think I use protein for energy.

This is how my daily diet looks like:
I eat two small bananas when I wake up. After that, I sip from orange juice and olive oil throughout the day. Sometimes, I will also eat about 15 to 20 dried apricots/pears. My last meal consists of either raw egg yolks or salmon/tuna.
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Postby RRM » Sun 23 May 2010 16:43

Kookaburra wrote: I weigh about 45kg.
Huh?
How tall are you?
There is info about how much protein you need here:
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html
You will need about (45/80 x 384) 216 mg methionine and cysteine, minimally,
and anything over (45/80 x 1040) 585 mg may be redundant.

So, im guessing you ingest about 90 mg methionine and 112 mg cystein from fruits only,
which means you minimally need about 115 mg and maximally 484 mg of each from animal food,
which equals minimally 2 egg yolks daily, or 26 grams of tuna / salmon.
Anything over 8 yolks, or 100 g of salmon or 110 g of salmon will be redundant for you.

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