Olive oil and fatty acid balance

What oil? Which vinegar? What about sugar?
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Terence
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Olive oil and fatty acid balance

Post by Terence »

I have read somewhere here in the forum that your fatty acid balance can be disturbed if you consume only lots of oilive oil without fish for a long time. I wonder also if olive oil can be harmful regarding omega 3 / omega 6 balance?

Is this problem just theoretical or has anybody experienced any discomfort or illness after eating too much olive oil?

RRM, Oscar, do you know any cases of illness caused by oo overconsumption?

I have heard that olive oil contains only very small amounts of omega 6 acids and is therefore not critical regarding balancies, like mentioned in this article:

http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxificat ... ve-oil.htm

(there are thousands and millions of articles like this, possibly due to the great number of people earning money with olive oil...)

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Re: Olive oil and fatty acid balance

Post by RRM »

Terence wrote:I wonder also if olive oil can be harmful regarding omega 3 / omega 6 balance?
In theory, yes.
has anybody experienced any discomfort or illness after eating too much olive oil?
Nobody, as far as i know.
RRM, Oscar, do you know any cases of illness caused by oo overconsumption?
I dont.
I have heard that olive oil contains only very small amounts of omega 6 acids and is therefore not critical regarding balancies
Common fatty acids such as linoleic acid and arachidonic acid are omega-6 fats.
According to Souci et al, olive oil contains 10-fold more omega 6 (linoleic acid) than omega 3 (linolenic acid). So, in theory, OO does make a difference...
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Re: Olive oil and fatty acid balance

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Terence wrote:Is this problem just theoretical or has anybody experienced any discomfort or illness after eating too much olive oil?
I haven't had the experience.
Terence wrote:RRM, Oscar, do you know any cases of illness caused by oo overconsumption?
I don't either.
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Re: Olive oil and fatty acid balance

Post by Terence »

Oscar wrote:
Terence wrote:Is this problem just theoretical or has anybody experienced any discomfort or illness after eating too much olive oil?
I haven't had the experience.
Terence wrote:RRM, Oscar, do you know any cases of illness caused by oo overconsumption?
I don't either.
RRM and Oscar, thanks for your info.

Omega 3 MAY be a short-lived hype, as Oscar mentioned somewhere here in this forum... Wolfgang Lutz and Dr. Jan Kwasniewski, two famous (cooked) low-carb-promoters ignore the whole omega-thing and seem to have no problems in the long-run. (eating lots of cooked pork fat)

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Re: Olive oil and fatty acid balance

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Terence wrote:Wolfgang Lutz and Dr. Jan Kwasniewski, two famous (cooked) low-carb-promoters ignore the whole omega-thing and seem to have no problems in the long-run. (eating lots of cooked pork fat)
There are healthy 90 year old people who have daily smoked 2 packs of cigarettes all their life, but what does that proof?
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Post by Terence »

Let´s look at RRM: Lot´s of olive oil and only small amounts of fish. If I remember correctly, not more than 125g of fish. Farmed salmon contains much more fat than wild salmon. So, I guess, RRM gets never more than 25g fat from fish. Olive oil has a ratio of 11 : 1 (omega 6 : omega 3). Farmed salmon 1 : 1. So, the resulting ratio in RRMs diet is much higher than 4 : 1, which is said to be unhealthy / causing health problems. And due to grain feeding, the egg yolks don´t make it better.

RRM, what do you think is the overall omega 6 : omega 3 - ratio in your diet? Did you experience any health problems in the last years? How much olive oil do you consume per day averagely? Do you think that there is a maximum of olive oil which one should not exceed to avoid problems?

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Re: Olive oil and fatty acid balance

Post by Terence »

RRM wrote:
Terence wrote:Wolfgang Lutz and Dr. Jan Kwasniewski, two famous (cooked) low-carb-promoters ignore the whole omega-thing and seem to have no problems in the long-run. (eating lots of cooked pork fat)
There are healthy 90 year old people who have daily smoked 2 packs of cigarettes all their life, but what does that proof?
It shows that for some people smoking is not as lethal as for others...

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Re: Olive oil and fatty acid balance

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Terence wrote: It shows that for some people smoking is not as lethal as for others...
Terence
Exactly. So, that from that kind of 'anekdotal evidence' one cannot conclude that smoking is ok, or that a cooked, low-carb, low omega diet is ok.
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Post by RRM »

Terence wrote:Olive oil has a ratio of 11 : 1 (omega 6 : omega 3). Farmed salmon 1 : 1. So, the resulting ratio in RRMs diet is much higher than 4 : 1, which is said to be unhealthy / causing health problems. And due to grain feeding, the egg yolks don´t make it better.
I dont know how you get that >4:1 for me, did you include fruits in your calculation?
The best established guideline is that the fats in our diet need to comprise at least 1 to 1.5% omega 3 fats.
Currently (high-energy expenditure) my daily diet contains about 110 grams of fat, of which 0.8 LNA + 0.9 EPA + 0.6 DPA + 2.9 grams DHA are omega 3 fats, which is 4.7% of total.
RRM, what do you think is the overall omega 6 : omega 3 - ratio in your diet?
The nutrient calculator says that regarding omega-6s, my diet just contains maximally 9.4 grams linoleic acid and 0.8 gamma-linolenic acid (0 for the remaining omega-6s), which is 9.3% of total.
In answer to your question, my ratio is: 9.3 : 4.7
Did you experience any health problems in the last years?
Im never ever sick. Not even a single day. No flu, nothing.
My sleep, mood and energy levels are absolutely perfect and my body is in great shape.
The only downside of being so energetic is that I usually work way too hard physically, because i dont get tired, so that i use a lot of calories (which is not good if you want to live long)
Do you think that there is a maximum of olive oil which one should not exceed to avoid problems?
Regarding omega 6 : 3, not really.
Also, in practise, then you may also consume more fish (I cant because of my skin), or some fish oil as well.

If I would consume more olive oil, the ratio of omega 9 would increase; if i would consume 100 grams of OO, the omega 3 content would be 3.1% and then the omega 6 content would be 8.8%.
If i would consume 200 grams of OO, then the omega 3 content would be 2.1% and the omega 6 content would be 8.6%. (just exceeding the 4:1 ratio)
Last edited by RRM on Wed 25 Apr 2007 16:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Terence »

RRM wrote:I dont know how you get that >4:1 for me, did you include fruits in your calculation?
Let´s assume you eat 100 grams olive oil and 25 grams of fat from fatty farmed salmon (with ratios 11:1 and 1:1) . Then your n6:n3-ratio is:

n6:n3 = ((100 * 11 ) + (25 * 1)) : (100+25) = 9.00

According to the books of Loren Cordain olive oil has not a ratio of 11 : 1, but 13.1 : 1. Now let´s assume you eat 100 grams of olive oil and 125 gram of wild salmon, which is much better than farmed salmon, IMO. Wild salmon has only 2.5 grams of fat per 100 gram and a superior n6:n3 ratio of 1:4. Your ratio would be:

n6:n3 = ((100 * 13.1) + (125 * 0.025 * 0.25)) : (100 + 125 * 0.025) = 1310.78 : 103.13 = 12.71

To answer your question: No, I didn´t include fruits in my calculation. I have neglected them because fruits virtually contain no fats. That´s why they can´t affect your n6:n3-ratio significantly. According to the USDA database oranges contain only 0.15 grams of fat per 100 gram. Now let´s assume that you eat 100 grams of olive oil (13.1:1), 25 grams of fat from farmed salmon (1:1) plus 3000 grams of oranges to see how this huge amount of oranges changes your n6:n3 - ratio overall. I don´t know the n6:n3-ratio of oranges. I guess that my assumption of 1:1 is way too optimistic. Your ratio would be:

n6:n3 = (100*13.1 + 25*1 + 3000/100*0.15*1) : (100 + 25 + 3000/100*0.15) = 1339.5 : 129.5 = 10.34

We can see that even 3 kg of oranges don´t bring the ratio down in the 'healthy' zone of 4:1. According to recent medical advice 10.34 is much too high and causes serious diseases in the long-run.
RRM wrote:The best established guideline is that the fats in our diet need to comprise at least 1 to 1.5% omega 3 fats.
What is the 'best' guideline? Is it the one you like most? Please give me some references. I would be happy if this was true.
RRM wrote:The nutrient calculator says that regarding omega-6s, my diet just contains 9.4 grams linoleic acid and 0.8 gamma-linolenic acid (0 for the remaining omega-6s), which is 9.3% of total.
In answer to your question, my ratio is: 9.3 : 4.7
According to my books regarding n6:n3-ratios in foods this ratio is totally impossible.
RRM wrote:Im never ever sick. Not even a single day. No flu, nothing.
My sleep, mood and energy levels are absolutely perfect and my body is in great shape.
That´s fantastic! Obviously the 'bad' n6:n3-ratio in your diet doesn´t compromise your health. I hope that there will be no problems in long-long-run. On the other hand you say that you follow this 'olive oil diet' for 10 years, if I remember correctly. Ten years are long enough to validate your diet, I think. Could you please tell me your current typical daily diet? Then we can use the same data to brood about n6:n3-ratios.
RRM wrote:The only downside of being so energetic is that I usually work way too hard physically, because i dont get tired, so that i use a lot of calories (which is not good if you want to live long)
Why do you think that lots of calories shorten lifetime?
RRM wrote:
Terence wrote:Do you think that there is a maximum of olive oil which one should not exceed to avoid problems?
Regarding omega 6 : 3, not really.
That would be fine. I guess that there are some other factors in olive oil which are still not discovered by scientists. Possibly qualities of omega 9 fats in olive oil can change the whole picture. Who knows. But from my feeling I would still say that animal fats, especially from fish, are much better for my body than olive oil, avocados and coconut fat. But I would never speak against olive oil, because, like fish, it is definetely helpful for my heart problems which I got from large amounts of dairy fat in the past, years ago.
RRM wrote:If I would consume more olive oil, the ratio of omega 9 would increase; if i would consume 100 grams of OO, the omega 3 content would be 3.1% and then the omega 6 content would be 8.8%.
If i would consume 200 grams of OO, then the omega 3 content would be 2.1% and the omega 6 content would be 8.6%. (just exceeding the 4:1 ratio)
Again, according to Cordain and others olive oil has a n6:n3-ratio of 13.1. In my understanding this ratio doesn´t change, it´s stable, independently from the amount of olive oil. So, I don´t understand your argument/calculation. You think that 100 grams of olive oil has a n6:n3-ratio of 8.8 : 3.1 = 2.84 ?? And you think that the ratio becomes bigger the more oil you eat? For the moment this sounds like nonsense to me. Perhaps you know things that others don´t or I don´t understand you correctly.

BTW: Please remember that I don´t want to criticise or bother you with my questions and criticism, it´s just curiosity.

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Post by RRM »

Terence wrote:According to the books of Loren Cordain olive oil has not a ratio of 11 : 1, but 13.1 : 1.
Lets not take one author as our guideline, ok?
Let us take generally accepted scientific databases, agreed?
No, I didn´t include fruits in my calculation.
In calculations you need to include all data. (even though many of these data are unknown)
For example: According to souci et al, Food Composition and Nutrition Tabels, all the fruits that I daily eat combined already contain at least 1 gram of alpha-linolenic acid (walnuts 680 mg, OJ 315 mg, banana 24 mg, cucumber 39 mg), which is considerable, given a total fat intake of 110 gram (which is 77 gram actually, as most of the times I cant find good avocadoes).
10.34 is much too high
Mine is way below that, as I showed you.
What is the 'best' guideline?
The one that has been best established.
The exactly required omega 6 versus 3 ratio is more controversial than the % omega 3 of total fat, dont you agree? (and for most foods, not all the differentiated fatty acid contents are known)
According to my books regarding n6:n3-ratios in foods this ratio is totally impossible.
Okay, bring those numbers on then.
Contents of individual fatty acids, of course. (not n3:6 ratios according to cordain or anyone else; not opinion, but facts)

omega 3 fats:
Alpha-linolenic acid (18:3 n-3)
Eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5 n-3)
Docosapentaenoic acid (22:5 n-3)
Docosahexaenoic acid (22:6 n-3)

omega 6 fats:
Linoleic acid (18:2 n-6)
Calendic acid (18:3 n-6)
Gamma-linolenic acid (18:3 n-6)
Eicosadienoic acid (20:2 n-6)
Dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid (20:3 n-6)
Arachidonic acid (20:4 n-6)
Docosadienoic acid (22:2 n-6)
Adrenic acid (22:4 n-6)
Docosapentaenoic acid (22:5 n-6)
Could you please tell me your current typical daily diet? Then we can use the same data to brood about n6:n3-ratios.
Sure.
4500 ml orange juice
42 grams of olive oil
133 gram salmon
1 banana
1 small cucumber
4 or 5 tomatoes
(and occasionally walnuts in my salad, only 10 grams when calculated per day)

Why do you think that lots of calories shorten lifetime?
Studies imply so. You are not aware of those findings?
Again, according to Cordain and others olive oil has a n6:n3-ratio of 13.1. In my understanding this ratio doesn´t change, it´s stable, independently from the amount of olive oil.
Actually, it DOES differ per olive oil that you investigate.
(and of course, the amount doesnt matter)
I dont simply accept Cordains findings as the truth. (or the specific OO he studied)
I do accept data of all the individual fatty acids contained in olive oil, available in nutrient databases based on scientific findings.
You think that 100 grams of olive oil has a n6:n3-ratio of 8.8 : 3.1 = 2.84 ?? And you think that the ratio becomes bigger the more oil you eat?
Of course not.
You need to take ALL foods consumed into account (not just OO), and yes, if you then consume more olive oil, whereas as the intake of all the other foods remains the same, of course, that balance will shift.
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Post by RRM »

This is what Cordain says about omega 3 fats:
from this page
Try to include at least 0.5-1.8 grams of EPA + DHA per day in your diet
According to his own (USDA) info, 133 grams of atlantic salmon provides me with 1.6 grams of EPA + DHA.
According to the USDA database, 133 grams of wild atlantic salmon contains 1.9 grams, and farmed atlantic salmon contains 2.5 grams of EPA + DHA.
According to the european Souci et al, Food Composition and Nutrition Tabels, 133 grams of wild atlantic salmon provides me with 3.8 grams of EPA + DHA.

Lets say the truth lays somewhere in between, then im doing pretty good!
Cordain at that same page:
If you are taking more than 3 grams of EPA + DHA per day, consult with your physician because high intakes tend to prevent blood from clotting and may cause excessive nose bleeding
So, according to Cordain, I might also be in danger for taking too much omega 3 fats?
Regardless omega 6 intake?

Regarding omega 6 : 3
Lets just assume my EPA + DHA is only 1.6 grams, and my DPA is 0.3 (at least), plus at least 1 gram of ALNA from fruits, plus 0.2 ALNA from salmon, this amounts to at least 3.1 grams of omega 3 fats.
(though some of the undifferentiated 18:4 will turn out to be the omega 3 Parinaric acid as well).

My total fat consumption is 42 grams of olive oil plus 18 grams from salmon and 18 grams from fruits. 78 grams in total.
Even then 4% of total fat are omega 3 fats.

Some of the other fats are: 37 g oleic acid, 8.6 g palmitic acid, 1.7 g palmitoleic acid, 1.2 g myristic acid, 1.7 stearic acid, 0.9 behenic acid, plus 1.4 g of undifferentiated 22:1 and 0.3 g of 18:4, which amounts to 52.8 grams in total.

In other words: of the 78 grams of fat in total, at least 3.1 + 52.8 g are certainly not omega 6 fats, which leaves a maximum of 22,1 grams of other fats, including some omega 6.
So, even when all the remaining undifferentiated fats are indeed all omega 6 fats, at worst, my omega 6:3 ratio is 7.1
Given the USDA database data (i consume farmed salmon), at worst its 5.3
Given the Souci et al data, at worst the omega ratio is 3.8

But all the above is when all the remaining undifferentiated fatty acids (such as 18:2) fall in the omega 6 category, which in practise is never the case.
In fact, only 9.8 g of the remaining fats are undifferntiated 18:2, and maximally 1 gram of the remaining undiffertiated 18:3 can turn out to be omega 6, so that more than half the possible omega 6 fats may not be omega 6 fats at all, which further slashes those ratios in half as well...
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Post by Terence »

RRM wrote:Lets not take one author as our guideline, ok?
Let us take generally accepted scientific databases, agreed?
Yes, I agree. Which database should we use. The USDA is unfortunately useless regarding fat analysis. You are using the Souci Fachmann Kraut nutrition tables, right? Are they somewhere available online?
RRM wrote:..The exactly required omega 6 versus 3 ratio is more controversial than the % omega 3 of total fat, dont you agree? (and for most foods, not all the differentiated fatty acid contents are known)
No, I didn´t know that the n6:n3-ratio discussion is so controversial. Could you please give some references or book recommendations? I have the feeling that you think a lot about your n6:n3-ratio. You don´t think that it is completely insignificant, right?
RRM wrote:
Terence wrote:Could you please tell me your current typical daily diet? Then we can use the same data to brood about n6:n3-ratios.
Sure.
4500 ml orange juice
42 grams of olive oil
133 gram salmon
1 banana
1 small cucumber
4 or 5 tomatoes
(and occasionally walnuts in my salad, only 10 grams when calculated per day)
Oooh.. That´s a complete different picture! I didn´t know that your current diet is SO FAR away from Wai's sample diet which recommends 1 gram fat for every 2 grams of sugar for beginners. I didn't know that your intake of olive oil is so low. Your ratio of sugar to fat is much bigger than 2, I guess it´s round about 4.x. With so much sugar in your diet, how many 'meals' do you eat per day averagely? How often do you drink a sip of juice? Your diet, very high in sugar and very low in protein and fat seems to be very like as Douglas Graham recommends (except for the piece of fish you eat). I believe that such a fruitarian diet makes reproduction impossible, but this is another issue. By the way: Do you think that is possible to maintain Wai's diet without juices, that means with whole fruits only?
RRM wrote:
Terence wrote:Why do you think that lots of calories shorten lifetime?
Studies imply so. You are not aware of those findings?
Of course, I have heard of this several times, but I don't know any study in the context of raw food. Based on my personal experience, on a raw paleo diet, without dairy, it´s not possible to overeat day after day. And if I eat 1 kg of fish, I just eat as much as my body 'wants' and suddenly I´m full and can´t eat one more gram of fish. That´s a little bit instincto eating.
RRM wrote:
Terence wrote:Again, according to Cordain and others olive oil has a n6:n3-ratio of 13.1. In my understanding this ratio doesn´t change, it´s stable, independently from the amount of olive oil.
Actually, it DOES differ per olive oil that you investigate.
(and of course, the amount doesnt matter)
I dont simply accept Cordains findings as the truth. (or the specific OO he studied)
I do accept data of all the individual fatty acids contained in olive oil, available in nutrient databases based on scientific findings.
I guess that Loren Cordain just uses nutrient databases when talking about olive oil and avocados. It´s totally clear that quantities in nutrients differ in fruit samples. The numbers given in databases are therefore usually average values. What does 'your' nutrient database say about the n6:n3-ratio in olive oil?

RRM, I think your diet is not representative for most Wai dieters. I guess that it´s much higher in sugar und lower fatl. Please let us talk about a sample diet in which the energy ratio of sugar and fat is round about 50:50, that means 1 gram fat for every 2 grams of sugar. I think you have to agree that the n6:n3-ratio of this diet, according to reliable nutrient databases, is much higher than 4:1, correct?

And back to my original question: Can this ratio be detrimental to health? Are there other still unknown factors?

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Post by Terence »

RRM wrote:This is what Cordain says about omega 3 fats:
from this page
Try to include at least 0.5-1.8 grams of EPA + DHA per day in your diet
According to his own (USDA) info, 133 grams of atlantic salmon provides me with 1.6 grams of EPA + DHA.
According to the USDA database, 133 grams of wild atlantic salmon contains 1.9 grams, and farmed atlantic salmon contains 2.5 grams of EPA + DHA.
According to the european Souci et al, Food Composition and Nutrition Tabels, 133 grams of wild atlantic salmon provides me with 3.8 grams of EPA + DHA.

Lets say the truth lays somewhere in between, then im doing pretty good!
And what happens if you add 100ml of olive oil? Like I do, and possibly many others here? The n6:n3-ratio would be dreadful, right?
RRM wrote:
Cordain at that same page:
If you are taking more than 3 grams of EPA + DHA per day, consult with your physician because high intakes tend to prevent blood from clotting and may cause excessive nose bleeding
So, according to Cordain, I might also be in danger for taking too much omega 3 fats?
Regardless omega 6 intake?
Cordain is talking about n3-fats from animal sources. Obviously you are talking about other fats because you eat only minimal amounts of fish. And perhaps, you are at risk and still don´t know and don´t feel it. Who knows.
RRM wrote:Regarding omega 6 : 3
Lets just assume my EPA + DHA is only 1.6 grams, and my DPA is 0.3 (at least), plus at least 1 gram of ALNA from fruits, plus 0.2 ALNA from salmon, this amounts to at least 3.1 grams of omega 3 fats.
(though some of the undifferentiated 18:4 will turn out to be the omega 3 Parinaric acid as well).

My total fat consumption is 42 grams of olive oil plus 18 grams from salmon and 18 grams from fruits. 78 grams in total.
Even then 4% of total fat are omega 3 fats.

Some of the other fats are: 37 g oleic acid, 8.6 g palmitic acid, 1.7 g palmitoleic acid, 1.2 g myristic acid, 1.7 stearic acid, 0.9 behenic acid, plus 1.4 g of undifferentiated 22:1 and 0.3 g of 18:4, which amounts to 52.8 grams in total.

In other words: of the 78 grams of fat in total, at least 3.1 + 52.8 g are certainly not omega 6 fats, which leaves a maximum of 22,1 grams of other fats, including some omega 6.
So, even when all the remaining undifferentiated fats are indeed all omega 6 fats, at worst, my omega 6:3 ratio is 7.1
Given the USDA database data (i consume farmed salmon), at worst its 5.3
Given the Souci et al data, at worst the omega ratio is 3.8

But all the above is when all the remaining undifferentiated fatty acids (such as 18:2) fall in the omega 6 category, which in practise is never the case.
In fact, only 9.8 g of the remaining fats are undifferntiated 18:2, and maximally 1 gram of the remaining undiffertiated 18:3 can turn out to be omega 6, so that more than half the possible omega 6 fats may not be omega 6 fats at all, which further slashes those ratios in half as well...
Ok, under the assumption that fruits deliver advantageous fat-profiles AND realization that your olive oil intake is much lower than I thought AND your orange juice intake much higher you make me believe now, after delivering so much data, that YOUR overall n6:n3-ratio is in accordance to current medical advice. LOL.

C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S ! :D :D :D

But, RRM... all the other Way dieters would like to be as super-healthy like you and not be killed by possibly hazardous n6 excesses from olive oil and avocados. Could you PLEASE analyse the following diet scenario, regarding n6:n3-ratios:

500 grams apples
500 grams oranges
500 grams banana
100 grams olive oil
250 grams wild salmon

This could be a typical daily diet for me, if I don´t crave for animal food like crazy as in the last days.

Terence
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Post by avalon »

Thanx for these posts! Though I am not completely n3/n6 illiterate, it has not been a big focus- values, tables and so on. Very Interesting!
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