Sugar and fat causing indigestion?

What oil? Which vinegar? What about sugar?
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » Tue 13 Jun 2006 13:29

Exactly. :)
finnishfiend
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Postby finnishfiend » Wed 14 Jun 2006 03:21

Wintran wrote:
Oscar wrote: Normally about half of the sugars in OJ is sucrose.
Ah, I see. Hmm, then it shouldn't really make that much of a difference if we add additional sucrose through table sugar...
Yeah, I will have to do more careful observation... It might turn out that I took much larger amounts of sugar in than I thought. Maybe I will very carefully separate my portions some day so I can finally get a better clue as to the amount to drink at any one point. (Not something I want to do long term, but it will be a good learning experience.)
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Postby avalon » Wed 14 Jun 2006 13:38

Just a reminder to all who may be new-

Consider using a straw to sip your Orange Juice (with or without sugar) to help prevent the acidity from affecting your teeth. Escpecially if you're sipping throughout the day, you're bathing your teeth with acid.

Peace, Avalon
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Postby andyville » Mon 19 Jun 2006 22:00

avalon:

Thanks for your advice, I've actually started using a straw now and it works great! I still feel that my teeth are really in pain after some orange juice, though. One thing that seems to eliminate the problem to some extent at least, is to take the olive oil after the orange juice, and really let the oil wash your mouth and teeth before swallowing. I have a feeling that the "feeling of acidity" in the mouth goes down a lot when doing so... Could this observation be correct Oscar, or did I put lsd on my cornflakes again?
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Postby Oscar » Tue 20 Jun 2006 00:14

Could be right. Olive oil is a weak acid, so it could temper stronger acids.
If you look in the mirror and you see your front teeth grow, then it must be the LSD... ;)
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Postby avalon » Tue 20 Jun 2006 01:55

I don't think Wai meant for juicing and or inclusion of sugar to be a staple of the diet. That is my belief. I think it was an 'if' for energy scenario. Just to clarify, yes the starw is important, though I am not recommending drinking juice day after day thoughout the day. And it is my understanding, it is very bad for your teeth in the long run.

I'll ad if you are drinking juice, even with a straw, even just eating fruits a lot, rinse with water after... this should help prevent deterioration of enamel. If you don't want the water to interfere with digestion, take a swig, rinse and spit.

:D

To keep your smile!
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » Tue 20 Jun 2006 02:09

avalon wrote:And it is my understanding, it is very bad for your teeth in the long run.
Normally yes, but on the Wai diet all bets are off. After 13 or so years RRM's teeth should be all gone, but they aren't.
Also, the same would go for (regularly) eating acid fruits, not only juice.
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Postby Chin-Chin » Tue 20 Jun 2006 22:18

Oscar wrote:
avalon wrote:And it is my understanding, it is very bad for your teeth in the long run.
Normally yes, but on the Wai diet all bets are off. After 13 or so years RRM's teeth should be all gone, but they aren't.
Also, the same would go for (regularly) eating acid fruits, not only juice.
I'm skeptical about this argument. It's like a person on S.A.D. saying that he never has acne problems, and if acne was related to diet, he would have been the first to be all covered with acne...

We don't know RRM's genetic make-up, and it seems dismissive to use him or a few other people to invalide the legitimate and rightful concern that many memebers on this forum have over our teeth while maintaining this diet.

I tried the brushing methods suggested, as well as the gum massage (which I kind of abandoned since), but I still have swollen gums up to this date, and often bleeding gums, and as I have stated earlier, I never had gum problems before this diet. This is also a prevalent problem in fruitarian communities, as can be testified by the sheer volume of literature in fruitarian forums devoted to teeth.

So I don't think it's a very scientific approach to cite isolated incidences when there's overwhelming evidence that this diet can be damaging to the teeth and gums.

The question now is: what are the solutions that people have found. Some say more oil, some say drinking with a straw, some say massaging the gums. I've tried all of them, and the result has not been spectacular up to date...
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Postby huntress » Tue 20 Jun 2006 23:39

My my Chin-Chin, you do have your way with words huh? :wink:
And I totally agree with you my dear.

I want to point out that there was an article posted in a thread somewhere about preventing tooth decay:

http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissue ... brush.html

The article talks about how Vitamin C helps with tooth decay.
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Postby Oscar » Wed 21 Jun 2006 01:21

Well, if you read carefully, I reacted to an argument which was general in itself.

There have been scientific experiments which tested the effect of sugary juices, fruits, and acids on teeth. What you learn in dental school is exactly what I said. After 13 years RRM's teeth, according to general dental knowledge, should've been totally gone.

Also, calling one or two cases "overwhelming evidence" sounds kinda quick jumping to conclusions to me. Hardly a scientific approach either.

As the Wai diet is relatively new, we have to look at problems in different ways, and find solutions on the way.
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Postby Brian » Wed 21 Jun 2006 01:48

Oscar, can I ask your opinion on teeth on the whole?
For example: best practices, things to avoid, warning signs of problems, etc.

I don't know much about teeth and haven't had any problems yet, but with all this talk lately I have to admit it's been on my mind more often lately...
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Postby Oscar » Wed 21 Jun 2006 03:33

Best not to worry about it too much if you don't have problems... ;)

I'm trying to combine knowledge from what I learned during my study, with personal experiences and new discoveries/theories about food and teeth. I've explained some basic things in the "Teeth" topic, and also posted some possible theories.

Personally I feel my teeth have grown stronger (like my nails have too) on the diet, and the fruit and OJ don't seem to have any effect on them.

Best practices:
- brush at least once a day, but quality is more important than quantity. So better once perfect, than 3 times imperfect.
- use a soft, multi-tufted brush.
- toothpaste isn't necessary; due to the abrasiveness it might damage the enamel if the enamel is soft from the fruit (juice) acids. I'm not sure if the remineralisation will be able to repair it. I don't know if alternative toothpastes (like toothsoap) have beneficial effects or not.
- use the modified Bass method ('normal' brushing with Bass (explained in the "teeth" thread)).
- don't use too much force when brushing.
- floss or use toothpicks if gums are problematic.
- during the night, remineralisation takes place, so don't eat.

When gums bleed regularly and/or are swollen, then normally they are inflamed, because of the bacteria in plaque (unsufficient cleaning). This is according to traditional dental knowledge. On the Wai diet however, this might be different. I don't have a good theory about this yet.

Hope this helps. :)
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Postby huntress » Wed 21 Jun 2006 04:18

When gums bleed regularly and/or are swollen, then normally they are inflamed, because of the bacteria in plaque (unsufficient cleaning).
Isn't this due to lack of Vitamin C?
Chin-Chin
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Postby Chin-Chin » Wed 21 Jun 2006 09:48

I don't know Huntress, but I definitely don't lack vitamin C on this diet.
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Postby Chin-Chin » Wed 21 Jun 2006 10:00

Oscar wrote: Also, calling one or two cases "overwhelming evidence" sounds kinda quick jumping to conclusions to me. Hardly a scientific approach either.
Come on, OSCAR. Type in Fruitarian and teeth and do a search yourself.

Here is an example. In bold is the kind of dismissive attitude that's particularly irksome to people suffering teeth problems on this diet:
Many raw-food enthusiasts have experienced dental problems from fruitarian or fruit-based diets. I've talked to people on fruit-based diets who had gums recede, teeth loosen and fall out, had teeth crack, had pieces of teeth break off, etc. They generally felt fine, and dental disintegration came as a surprise. One man, who had eaten nothing but raw fruit for six months, told me he had "felt like he was flying". Then he started losing teeth. He gave up raw foods.

This is not a new problem. Decades ago, Arnold Ehret promoted a fruit-based diet. Some people who followed him lost teeth.  inhs.net/drbass

Raw food e-groups have posts by people saying "I thought this diet was supposed to help me, how come my teeth are falling out?". Some raw food advocates teach that fruit is the perfect food. They often ignore the tooth loss and other dental problems of their followers. Some claim that the suddenly toothless people were all having dental disorders before going raw, even though it's not true. Some raw fooders make up fantastical theories to rationalize why it really wasn't the fruit.

Mineral imbalance.
The explanation is simple. Bones and teeth, like all other body tissues, are constantly being rebuilt. The materials that the tissues are made of are continually being slowly replaced. Fruit is high in phosphorus, low in calcium and magnesium. In order for the body to maintain bones and teeth, there needs to be a proper ratio of minerals. Too much phosphorus, too little magnesium, the calcium doesn't stay. Of course, most fruit is low in calcium in the first place. Oranges and figs are a bit higher in calcium, but there's still the high phosphorus, low magnesium.

The teeth loosening and/or falling out is probably caused by loss of minerals, leading to loss of bone in the jaw, so that the tooth socket becomes loose. The cracking of teeth is probably caused by loss of minerals in the internal structure of the tooth.

(One of the reasons that eating animal products leads to osteoporosis is the high phosphorus content, the low magnesium; however there's also the high content of sulfur-containing amino acids.)

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