Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

About consuming fruits; fresh, dried or juiced.
djkvan
Posts: 322
https://cutt.ly/meble-kuchenne-wroclaw
Joined: Thu 24 Jun 2010 17:13
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada

Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by djkvan »

Climacteric fruit continue to ripen after harvest, non-climacteric fruit do not. Any "improvement" in flavour of non-climacteric fruit is wholly due to decay and not some "perceived" ripening effect. The following link lists which fruits are which:

http://www.quisqualis.com/Climacteric.html

Non-climacteric fruit (e.g. oranges), even if treated w/ethylene, will not ripen past the point of harvest. They will only begin to decay.

Fromhttp://www.internationalrecipes.net/article/En ... e%20Season
Examples of such fruits are: apples, pears, plums, peaches, melons, avocados, bananas, mangoes, passion fruit, persimmons, guava, nectarines, plantains, apricots, and tomato. Examples of non-climacteric fruits that will not ripen further after being picked are cherries, berries (including strawberries, blueberries and cranberries), grapes, citrus (including oranges, lemons, limes and grapefruits) pineapple, watermelon and cucumber. Tomatoes and cucumbers are listed botanically as fruits although their usage is categorized for vegetables.

Many people have trouble choosing a ripe melon (a climacteric fruit) and the pineapple (a non-climacteric one). In selecting a melon, fragrance is the most important factor. Pick up a cantaloupe, honeydew or watermelon and smell the entire fruit to include both blossom and stem end. A sweet fragrance is a good indicator of a ripe, sweet fruit. Cantaloupes should not be green but have an even orange-gold color. Honeydew should be a pale creamy green or creamy yellow color. Watermelon should have uniform color and a shrunken and shriveled stem end, which indicates maturity and ripeness. Actually, when buying melons, checking the stem end is also important. The area should be a bit indented and yield a bit when press with a finger.

Choosing a good pineapple is much harder to determine. A good pineapple is a heavy fruit, with uniform golden color and a sweet fragrance. These qualities are the best indicators for ripeness. Despite popular perception, pulling off the center leaves is not an accurate way of determining ripeness.

Fruits such as peaches, pears, plums, nectarines, avocados and kiwis should have an even color. They may be feel hard when first purchased but will soften, may change color and become juicy or soft in several days at room temperature. Tomatoes ripen and develop color with warmth and not sunlight; refrigerate when ripe.

Citrus fruits should feel heavy and not hollow. Thin-skinned citrus have more juice than do thick-skinned citrus. Refrigeration will not harm these types of fruit.

The chemical responsible for the ripening process is a hormone called ethylene. Apples are a good example of a fruit that have the power of ethylene. Many have learned the trick to include a ripe apple or banana in a bowl with some unripened fruit as a means of causing the other fruits to ripen more quickly. Another simple solution to hasten ripening is to place fruit in a brown paper bag (prick a few small holes in the bag–include an apple or banana if desired) and seal. The trapped gas causes ripening and the fruit should start to ripen within approximately 8 hours. Fruits such as green bananas and hard tomatoes may be shipped to remote places and then sprayed with ethylene to hasten the ripening process before they reach the supermarket.

At normal room temperature most climacteric fruit ripens from one to four days. Once ripe, fruit should be refrigerated if not eaten within a day or so. Don't be surprised if fully ripened fruit rots quickly. If a fruit gets overripe, remove the individual piece from the remainder of the fruit. Because ethylene is very powerful, the remainder of your fresh fruit would soon spoil. Once fruit starts to ripen, the chemical process of “respiration“ occurs (rapid use of oxygen and production of carbon dioxide) and is quite efficient. Even refrigeration may not be a complete deterrent for overripe fruit. In other words, the end stage of ripening is eventual decay. So enjoy your fruit at its peak!
I do so like green eggs and ham. Thank you, thank you. Sam I am.
User avatar
RRM
Administrator
Posts: 8164
Joined: Sat 16 Jul 2005 00:01
Contact:

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by RRM »

djkvan wrote: Non-climacteric fruit (e.g. oranges), even if treated w/ethylene, will not ripen past the point of harvest. They will only begin to decay.
As always, a black-and-white classification is (in general) an oversimplification of the truth.
There is no such a distinct line between those groups; its about many shades of gray.
Yes, climacteric fruits can ripen more profoundly after picking than non-climateric ones,
but i know from (a lot of) experience that oranges will become less acidic the longer you keep them in the box;
oranges that were not fit for consumption, became fit for consumption after a few weeks of storage.
Any "improvement" in flavour of non-climacteric fruit is wholly due to decay and not some "perceived" ripening effect.
If the decay decreases the amount of anti nutrients, and therefore decreases the bitter / acid taste,
that accounts for 'ripening' in my book.
You can ask anyone who trades in oranges by buying one big load of oranges (dozens to hundreds of crates)
and reselling them in smaller quantities (several crates).
They will all tell you that the first oranges from that batch will taste the worst,
and that the last remaining ones from that same batch will always taste the best.

Its a never ending cyclic event as the source of oranges shifts from season to season to different regions of the world.
With every new source, one always initially has to endure somewhat unripe oranges.
As that source gets exhausted, the oranges will taste better.
And then we will shift to a new source again.
Really, you should ask a trader about this.
djkvan
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu 24 Jun 2010 17:13
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by djkvan »

Perhaps mild fermentation will improve the taste of acidic flavored under-ripe oranges. Oranges are non-climacteric fruit. Once harvested there is no further ripening. I didn't invent the truth. I am merely disseminating it.
I do so like green eggs and ham. Thank you, thank you. Sam I am.
panacea
Posts: 989
Joined: Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:08

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by panacea »

Hmm, this is getting interesting, we must find out if oranges becoming less acidic after weeks of storage is because of fermentation or something else, and if this is potentially masking bad oranges or giving us good oranges anyway.

Some questions to get started:
1. Would ethylene gas from apples put in a brown bag ripen oranges, even though they are supposedly non climacteric? (This would solve the problem if so)
2. What are the requirements for fermentation, can it happen in oranges, and if so, what chemically goes on exactly?
3. What are the differences nutritionally from acidic oranges and non acidic oranges besides the acidity.

Also we need to define what ripening and decaying really means in terms of fruit and their nutrient make up.

EDIT: I found this snippet online, which seems to refute djkvans argument, but it is only one persons opinion:

" Fruit is categorized either as climacteric or a non-climacteric variety. Climacteric fruits are those fruits which fully mature on the stem and then continue to ripen further while becoming sweeter and juicier after it's picked. Non-climacteric fruits should fully ripen on the stem and do not continue to ripen even when picked. Thus, picking these fruits at the correct ripeness stage is most important. Be aware that non-climacteric fruits will indeed soften or turn color at room temperature but will not get any sweeter or riper. "
Yet we know oranges do taste sweeter, so might it be ripening, or something else like fermentation, and what's the difference?

More information, which seems to contradict our experiences:
Sweet oranges mature in 9-12 months. Being a non-climacteric fruit, there is no improvement in colour, taste and flavour after harvesting. Therefore, fruits should be harvested when they are fully ripe and attain proper size, attractive colour and acceptable sugar: acid ratio.
@RRM could it have been that your oranges were stored in the proximity of ethylene gas producing fruits?

EDIT:
Here is an interesting snippet talking about 'maturing', maybe that is decay, or it is something new besides decaying and ripening both... hmm
Budded orange trees, if properly planted and grown, will bear harvestable fruit in the third season after transplanting. Any fruit that might set in the first and second seasons should probably be removed so that all of the young tree's energy is directed into growth.

Production of navel oranges could approach 10-15 pounds in the third season, increasing to around 100-150 pounds at full maturity in the tenth season. Early and midseason oranges could start at about 20-25 pounds in the third season and increase to around 200-250 pounds per tree by the tenth season. 'Valencia' orange production will be a little less than that of early oranges.

Oranges do not "ripen" in the general sense of the word as it is applied to other fruits; instead, they mature to good eating quality. Too, peel color is no indicator of maturity, as the peel undergoes natural degreening in November and December, and peel color of 'Valencia' oranges often regreens after the spring growth flush occurs.

Oranges are classified by their season of maturity, i.e., early, midseason and late oranges. Early oranges include 'Parson Brown', 'Marrs', navels and 'Hamlin', in order of maturity from early September through early October. Midseason oranges include true 'Pineapple' and 'Jaffa', with 'Pineapple' usually maturing about Thanksgiving and 'Jaffa' about Christmas. The only late orange in Texas is 'Valencia' which matures about early February.

Most oranges do not hold well on-tree; as they become overmature, they soften and drop. Overmature navel oranges also begin to dry out on the stem end, especially the larger, more oblong fruit. 'Marrs' and navels may hold into early February, especially in seasons having fairly cool weather in December and January. Midseason oranges typically hold through late February to March. 'Valencia' oranges hold much better than other oranges, often into June or July. Within limits, the longer the fruit stays on the tree, the sweeter it becomes.

Navel oranges are typically peeled and eaten out-of-hand, the others are more commonly sliced or sectioned for fresh consumption or juiced for drinking. Seedy varieties are often referred to as "juice oranges" since juicing is about the easiest means to remove the seeds. Navel oranges can be juiced for immediate consumption, but navel orange juice becomes bitter after a few hours. With the exception of navel, the other oranges can be sectioned for freezing and the juice can also be frozen for later use.
FINAL EDIT:
I got lucky and browsed upon this about pineapple, also a non climacteric fruit like the orange, to discover the reason why they get sweeter in storage!
Short storage lives. Store and handle berries carefully and briefly. Don't wash until last minute (to avoid damage/decay). Grapes keep okay in the fridge. Pineapple will not get any sweeter in storage, but it will become less tart as its acids are used up to soften the flesh.
This means that oranges don't ripen in storage, but DECAY, and as they are in the decaying process, the acids partially get used up to soften the flesh, making it taste sweeter!
djkvan
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu 24 Jun 2010 17:13
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by djkvan »

In the meantime sugars are beginning to be fermented which is a function of bacteria and yeast. Surrounding sugars and micronutrients in the fruit feed these organisms during the process of fermentation, so as anti-nutrient levels drop so do nutrient levels. No?
I do so like green eggs and ham. Thank you, thank you. Sam I am.
panacea
Posts: 989
Joined: Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:08

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by panacea »

My main question though was how do we know that even when the unripe oranges decay making the acids partially go away from the part we eat, that the nutrients in the oranges are even there in plentiful amount? I mean, don't the nutrients become in proper ratio DURING the ripening process of fruits? so eating unripe oranges, regardless of if they aren't terrible for you (acids go away), wouldn't the be 'empty' or 'unmature' nutritionally?

I know it has been a long held belief that oranges are one of the best staple foods but if this is true perhaps we'll have to find new fruits which actually ripen to juice/consume in large amounts, that way we are getting actually close to the nutrient data on the calculator and not eating unripe, potentially out of whack nutritionally fruit...
User avatar
RRM
Administrator
Posts: 8164
Joined: Sat 16 Jul 2005 00:01
Contact:

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by RRM »

djkvan wrote:In the meantime sugars are beginning to be fermented which is a function of bacteria and yeast. Surrounding sugars and micronutrients in the fruit feed these organisms during the process of fermentation, so as anti-nutrient levels drop so do nutrient levels. No?
Optimal nutrition is about sufficient nutrients and as little bad stuff, including anti nutrients.
The greater that ratio, the better.
If it tastes better, it means a better ratio of sugars etc versus anti nutrients.
So, yes, it IS better.
panacea wrote:how do we know that even when the unripe oranges decay making the acids partially go away from the part we eat, that the nutrients in the oranges are even there in plentiful amount?
Sufficient nutrients is generally not an issue on this diet.
On this diet there generally is always plenty of all nutrients.
which nutrient are you worried about?
don't the nutrients become in proper ratio DURING the ripening process of fruits?
Yes, the riper, the better.
Unripe fruits do contain nutrients, also depending on the ripeness, naturally.
getting actually close to the nutrient data on the calculator
Actually, the fruits tested are not the perfect ones; just an average selection.
So, if you always eat the perfectly ripe ones, you will even do better than is calculated.
not eating unripe, potentially out of whack nutritionally fruit...
Of course, you should not eat unripe fruit.
User avatar
Oscar
Administrator
Posts: 4350
Joined: Mon 15 Aug 2005 00:01

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by Oscar »

Bacteria always have something to do with decay/decomposition, which also happens in our intestines. While I agree that improved flavor doesn't scientifically mean a healthier state, it is one of the ways we (and other animals) would be able to distinguish in the wild. For me personally the ripening of a tomato (and accompanying taste improvement) seems the same as that of an orange (even though it might be chemically different).
User avatar
RRM
Administrator
Posts: 8164
Joined: Sat 16 Jul 2005 00:01
Contact:

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by RRM »

Unripe oranges will never taste sweet, i think.
I was talking about oranges that look ripe and feel ripe, but have an acidic or even bitter taste.
Leaving them in the box for a few more weeks may completely take away that acidic / bitter taste.
I never claimed that unripe but sweet (if thats even possible) oranges may be better than ripe ones.
If it tastes better, it means a better ratio of sugars etc versus anti nutrients.
So, yes, it is better.
So, my point just was that when acidic tasting oranges become less acidic over time,
that this improved taste is an indication that the sweeter orange is better for you than the more acidic / bitter one.
djkvan
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu 24 Jun 2010 17:13
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by djkvan »

RRM wrote:If it tastes better, it means a better ratio of sugars etc versus anti nutrients.
So, yes, it is better.
A better ratio of sugars arrived at due to fermentation may be achieved at the expense of so many nutrients that the fruit may, in fact be better for you when it is acidic. The only way to know would be to test. To say it IS better is pure conjecture, period.
I do so like green eggs and ham. Thank you, thank you. Sam I am.
User avatar
RRM
Administrator
Posts: 8164
Joined: Sat 16 Jul 2005 00:01
Contact:

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by RRM »

Fermentation causes sugars to be converted into alcohols and carbon dioxide or organic acids.
When fruit is fermenting, you can clearly taste it. Thats not the case here.
The only thing that happens is that the fruit tastes sweeter and less acidic / bitter. No carbon dioxide and/or alcohol.
No signs of decay in general.
There are different processes involved in decay, as there are in ripening, and they overlap.
Again, things usually are not as black-and-white as they may seem at first glance.
Significant fermentation is not an issue here, but a better sugars versus anti-nutrients ratio IS.
djkvan
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu 24 Jun 2010 17:13
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by djkvan »

One should not ignore effects because they aren't tasted. That is cavalier. I am not suggesting that the hidden effect should be given greater importance either. I am saying that it should be explored and not dismissed. As per

Preharvest and postharvest factors influencing vitamin C content of horticultural crops
Seung K. Lee 1, Adel A. Kader *
Department of Pomology, Uni6ersity of California, Da6is, CA 95616, USA
Received 15 January 2000; accepted 10 June 2000

Vitamin C is more stable in acidic fruit like citrus, so as its acidity diminishes during storage so does its vitamin C content. I will take the slight liberty of extending this effect to the other micronutrients in the fruit and then remind you that there is a fermentation process that is consuming further nutrients at the same time.
I do so like green eggs and ham. Thank you, thank you. Sam I am.
User avatar
RRM
Administrator
Posts: 8164
Joined: Sat 16 Jul 2005 00:01
Contact:

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by RRM »

The fermentation process is not noticed, and thus not significantly there, due to a lack of carbon dioxide and alcohol.
People generally think that a healthy diet is about getting as much vitamins as possible.
In this diet, they are abundantly present (and certainly so in the case of vitamin C).
More vitamins is not healthier. Our body tries to limit the uptake of surplus micronutrients.
Optimal health is about ingesting sufficient nutrients (not extra)
and as little stuff that you dont need and may be harmful, such as anti nutrients.
Particularly with this diet, there generally is no need to worry about nutrients,
and you should minimize anti nutrients intake where possible.

Let me give an example:
A relative of the orange is the lemon, which contains a little more vitamin C and B5 (both acids) than orange.
Does that make it a healthier fruit?
Not at all, as it also contains more anti nutrients, and thats why we advice against eating it.
Equally so we advice against eating acidic / bitter tasting oranges.
panacea
Posts: 989
Joined: Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:08

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by panacea »

What I want to know is WHEN and WHERE during an oranges development do the nutrients we need (in a sufficient not overabundant amount according to RRM) 'go into' the orange, or whatever. Or is it like, if there is an orange, then it has these nutrients, no matter what, the only thing that matters is if it's palatable etc...
User avatar
RRM
Administrator
Posts: 8164
Joined: Sat 16 Jul 2005 00:01
Contact:

Re: Climacteric/Non-Climacteric Fruit

Post by RRM »

panacea wrote:WHEN and WHERE during an oranges development do the nutrients we need 'go into' the orange
From the moment it grows, there are nutrients.
As long as it still tastes acidic / bitter, it hasnt properly ripened / matured yet,
and you will be ingesting too much acid / anti nutrients.
When its fully ripe, and there are no signs of decay, its optimal.
Post Reply