Bitter fruits are bad or good?

About consuming fruits; fresh, dried or juiced.
panacea
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Bitter fruits are bad or good?

Post by panacea »

People sometimes call sour/bitter tasting fruits vegetables, because most everyone is under the misconception that fruits are supposed to be sweet. In our ancestral wild habitat, our fruits were almost all bitter. For this reason I believe digestive bitters supplements or eating some bitter food is extremely beneficial. It's critical to keep in mind that our 'ew, nasty!' response to bitter tasting foods, even extremely bitter ones, are totally conditioned responses! It's just as reasonable that someone who doesn't take in the hoards of sugar or sodium that we typically do would cringe at the taste of a Pepsi, and make no facial expression when eating bitter tasting fruit. Although our nose and taste buds might have been geared for filtering the good food from the poisonous, nowadays our senses are totally dulled and our brains are subject to habit and lifestyle tastes rather than actual nutrition.
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Re: Big Saladlos

Post by fictor »

panacea wrote:It's critical to keep in mind that our 'ew, nasty!' response to bitter tasting foods, even extremely bitter ones, are totally conditioned responses!
Can you back that up?

I believe that this is a totally natural response, because bitters are "toxic". It is as natural as liking the taste of sweet foods.
panacea
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Re: Are Big Meals Bad?

Post by panacea »

Fictor wrote:
panacea wrote:It's critical to keep in mind that our 'ew, nasty!' response to bitter tasting foods, even extremely bitter ones, are totally conditioned responses!
Can you back that up?
I believe that this is a totally natural response, because bitters are "toxic". It is as natural as liking the taste of sweet foods.
It's something I've learned logically by studying human psychology and watching many documentaries on primates and the parts about their diet, which was heavily based on bitter tasting fruits. The cameramen on the set of the documentaries would spit out the fruits the primate ate because they tasted so bitter, with their facial expressions showing the disgust. The primates ate the same fruits with blank facial expressions, no reaction basically. The 'conditioned response' was trained out of them, just like if you go for a year without consuming any soda or processed food - the soda will taste unusual to you, because you will taste all the sodium as irregular. After continuing to drink sodas you adapt and get used to it. I've seen infants not even a year old try baby formula and prefer it over their mothers breast milk and it's tough to get them to go back to the milk. There's no sense in that. Also, it should be self evident from the fact that humans have eaten just about anything on the face of the Earth and some tribe or civilization has enjoyed it, that our dietary 'tastes' are not intuitively connected to health parameters, because we don't live in our natural habitat. We use technology and higher intelligence to survive in habitats we otherwise couldn't. Furthermore most peoples tastes and dietary psychology are extremely skewed by modern foods, drug-like substances etc.

Many Wai dieters like to believe that after they are on the diet 100% that, since the wai foods become enjoyable and they actually crave them, that there is some deeper meaning to this sensation. The fact is that it happens in all kinds of diets, regardless of the health of the food. The mind adapts to what it's used to.

In my opinion the faster you have bowel movements while still having completely normal color, consistency, and size, is the most accurate 'sensational' health measure of foods. Other than that I would go with CP (breathing pause)
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RRM
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Re: Big Saladlos

Post by RRM »

most everyone is under the misconception that fruits are supposed to be sweet. In our ancestral wild habitat, our fruits were almost all bitter.
Can you back this up?
For this reason I believe digestive bitters supplements or eating some bitter food is extremely beneficial.
So, in your belief, bitter equals beneficial?
really?
It's critical to keep in mind that our 'ew, nasty!' response to bitter tasting foods, even extremely bitter ones, are totally conditioned responses!
So, in your opinion babies are trained to show that response?
Keep in mind that mother's milk tastes sweet...
nowadays our senses are totally dulled and our brains are subject to habit and lifestyle tastes rather than actual nutrition.
Newborn babies know perfectly well what tastes good to them, and what not.
They will not accept the taste of fruit that has gone bad, for example.
They will not accept bitterness or acidic taste.
They do accept sweet.
panacea wrote:The cameramen on the set of the documentaries would spit out the fruits the primate ate because they tasted so bitter, with their facial expressions showing the disgust. The primates ate the same fruits with blank facial expressions, no reaction basically.
Primates in general do not have the same diet and requirements as humans have.
Many primates eat leaves that taste bitter.
Normal to them, not to us.
overkees
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad?

Post by overkees »

They eat these things because they have learned it from others. Mirroring others. Almost everything they eat is antifungal or antibacterial or potential parasites. THis is an interesting read: http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.nl/2010 ... cinal.html

I also believe that it is better to ingest some antimicrobal components before and after raw eggs, fish or meat. This is the reason I added some beneficial roots. Having an excess bacteria also causes alot of inflammation and stress. Something the roots also compensate because they are really antiinflammatory. Something fruit isn't. And the less stress the better, in my opinion. Just choose your things carefully.

Therefore I think the ginger with salmon combination for example is such a warm welcome for a lot of people.
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Oscar
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad?

Post by Oscar »

overkees wrote:Therefore I think the ginger with salmon combination for example is such a warm welcome for a lot of people.
Personally I think this rather stems from two possible reasons: either they are used to spices and think the salmon tastes bland and/or the ginger helps masking the fish taste.
panacea
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad?

Post by panacea »

In the wild as primitive humans, if we were eating the same fruits we do now, we would also be subjected to bitter tastes -

grapefruit..
orange peels are bitter
tannins in grape skins sometimes can taste bitter
cranberries
paw paw
dragon fruit
kumquat
tamarillo
bitter melon
gooseberry

all of these have some bitter components sometimes

RRM, the post title is really a mismatch to my post (the first one). If anything it should say "bitter fruits are good?" It appears since you don't like this idea you just changed the title to reflect that? Wtf?

I was talking about every kind of monkey, chimp, gorilla, etc, not just "some" that eat a lot of bitter plants as their main diet. And I wasn't even talking about bitter plants or vegetables at all, even though they do consume those too I'm sure. I was talking about the bitter components of their fruits only. Just like how the oranges you love RRM have bitter components, you simply stay away from them because of modern pesticides etc, in the wild as a primitive human you wouldn't need to or know to.

http://www.sensorysociety.org/ssp/wiki/Taste_Anatomy/

You can read how taste buds affect the vagal (or vagus) nerve. There's a lot of common sense information about how the vagus nerve can affect digestion etc. Since most westerners are usually totally deprived of bitter tastes, they are lacking this sensory input they would be getting in their natural habitat. That is why I consider it beneficial.

Babies don't have some sort of god like all knowing body either, as I said I've seen them prefer baby formula over breastmilk, which I'm sure can depend on all kinds of things like what they're subjected to in the womb.

RRM I also don't know how you know what is normal to us, or whether what is normal to us in this day and age is synonymous as healthy? Please enlighten me. (I'm almost sure it will be a string of logical assumptions and theories based on science articles, which is exactly the supportive evidence for bitter tastes as well. Just because there are many foods that tastes bitter that are bad for us, doesn't make the bitter taste inherently bad, just like how donuts taste sweet but aren't good for you either, doesn't rule out all the sweet tasting foods!)
panacea
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad?

Post by panacea »

I also wanted to mention that by saying I support bitter supplements, I don't meant swallowing them. I mean putting the bitters on the back of the tongue where the bitter taste buds are, then spitting it out! I don't recommend licking inside of peels etc due to pesticides etc, or anything like that..
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad?

Post by RRM »

overkees wrote:I also believe that it is better to ingest some antimicrobal components before and after raw eggs
As if these antimicrobal components would only kill the bacteria in egg yolks...
No, instead they will kill anything they come accross, including some of the bacteria in the egg yolks
AND some of the beneficial bacteria in your gut.
So, your belief may make you less healthy.
There are many natural medicins, antimicrobal components included.
Its never smart to take (natural) drugs if you dont take them for a specific ailment.
Having an excess bacteria also causes alot of inflammation and stress.
Solution:
Dont take anything that you think might contain excess bacteria.
So, always consume fresh raw egg yolks that meat the criteria.
And if you do ingest excess bacteria, the bowels (if not sedated) will swiftly empty your bowels,
getting rid of the excess bacteria.
And the less stress the better, in my opinion. Just choose your things carefully.
Exactly. So, you carefully choose no foods with antimicrobal properties,
as these are stress for your body too.
Therefore I think the ginger with salmon combination for example is such a warm welcome for a lot of people.
If the salmon is fresh, the ginger is not welcome at all.
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad?

Post by RRM »

panacea wrote:In the wild as primitive humans, if we were eating the same fruits we do now, we would also be subjected to bitter tastes -
Im pretty sure that as primitive humans,
we knew what fruits tasted best.
RRM, the post title is really a mismatch to my post (the first one). If anything it should say "bitter fruits are good?"
True, but people may think that thread titles represent what the diet stands for.
It appears since you don't like this idea you just changed the title to reflect that? Wtf?
"Wtf?"
That is what moderators have to do when misconceptions about this diet may arise (from a title).
In your actual post, your opinion is well reflected.
I was talking about every kind of monkey, chimp, gorilla, etc, not just "some" that eat a lot of bitter plants as their main diet. And I wasn't even talking about bitter plants or vegetables at all, even though they do consume those too I'm sure. I was talking about the bitter components of their fruits only.
I know that...
Just like how the oranges you love RRM have bitter components
I always choose the sweetest ones, and stay away from juicing the flesh too close to the skin.
in the wild as a primitive human you wouldn't need to or know to.
In the wild there is always relative food scarsity, so that animals may eat anything remotely edible.
If there is no such food scarsity, one will become more selective.
Optimally, one will opt for the food containing the least anti nutrients,
guided by taste.
Since most westerners are usually totally deprived of bitter tastes, they are lacking this sensory input they would be getting in their natural habitat. That is why I consider it beneficial.
Please explain;
They are beneficial because we are deprived of bitter tastes?
Babies don't have some sort of god like all knowing body either
All knowing? No.
But they know some things that may be key.
At least they know that they should prefer sweet over bitter.
If bitter was good, the above would not be the case, dont you think?
RRM I also don't know how you know what is normal to us, or whether what is normal to us in this day and age is synonymous as healthy? Please enlighten me.
What i know, is that toxins and anti-nutrients predominantly taste bitter,
and that a clean sweet taste represents the relative lack of toxins and antinutrients.
Just because there are many foods that tastes bitter that are bad for us, doesn't make the bitter taste inherently bad, just like how donuts taste sweet but aren't good for you either, doesn't rule out all the sweet tasting foods!)
Im assuming we are discussing natural foods here (donuts not included, right?).
So, yes, there are many natural foods that taste bitter that are bad for us,
but i dont know any natural food that tastes sweet and that is bad for us.
Do you?
Sweetness does not represent any toxin or anti nutrient.
Bitterness very often does.
Do you know any natural food that taste bitter that is very low in both toxins and anti-nutrients?
panacea
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad or good?

Post by panacea »

All of those fruits I mentioned taste bitter and usually sweet as well, and no matter what you say, no wild human ancestor who didn't use tools could have possibly had the intelligence (in the early stages) to stay away from bitter tasting fruits or inside of orange peels or other mixed sweet/bitter fruits. Furthermore we can get into the fact that psychology works by association and if you eat sweet oranges and they have bitter inside peels, as a primitive animal you're going to associate the two and learn to like both tastes.. You have to start thinking like a primitive human to understand how they really were!

Since when does the wai diet say that you shouldn't be licking the inside of organic orange peels (pesticide free/herbicide free grown in your own backyard for instance), or eating grapes? These are all potential sources of bitterness that until now I had no idea you were against.

As far as I know, there are several sweet tasting poisonous stuff in the wild, here's two I found after first google search and first result,

"Cassava (Manihot esculenta) Roots and leaves contain two cyanogenic glucosides, linamarin and lotaustralin. These are decomposed by linamarase, a naturally-occurring enzyme in cassava, liberating hydrogen cyanide .[4] Cassava varieties are often categorized as either sweet or bitter, respectively signifying the absence or presence of toxic levels of cyanogenic glucosides. The 'sweet' cultivars can produce as little as 20 milligrams of cyanide per kilogram of fresh roots, whereas bitter ones may produce more than 50 times as much (1 g/kg). Cassavas grown during drought are especially high in these toxins.[5][6] A dose of 40 mg of pure cassava cyanogenic glucoside is sufficient to kill a cow. It can also cause severe calcific pancreatitis in humans, leading to chronic pancreatitis. Processing (soaking, cooking, fermentation, etc.) of cassava root is necessary to remove the toxins and avoid getting sick. "Chronic, low-level cyanide exposure is associated with the development of goiter and with tropical ataxic neuropathy, a nerve-damaging disorder that renders a person unsteady and uncoordinated. Severe cyanide poisoning, particularly during famines, is associated with outbreaks of a debilitating, irreversible paralytic disorder called konzo and, in some cases, death. The incidence of konzo and tropical ataxic neuropathy can be as high as 3 percent in some areas."[7] For some smaller-rooted sweet varieties, cooking is sufficient to eliminate all toxicity. The cyanide is carried away in the processing water and the amounts produced in domestic consumption are too small to have environmental impact.[4] The larger-rooted, bitter varieties used for production of flour or starch must be processed to remove the cyanogenic glucosides.[8] Industrial production of cassava flour, even at the cottage level, may generate enough cyanide and cyanogenic glycosides in the effluents to have a severe environmental impact.[4]"

Atropa belladonna (commonly known as deadly nightshade, belladonna, devil's cherry and dwale, an Anglo-Saxon term meaning stupifying drink). One of the most toxic plants found in the Western hemisphere. All parts of the plant contain tropane alkaloids.[31] The active agents are atropine, hyoscine (scopolamine), and hyoscyamine, which have anticholinergic properties.[32][33] The symptoms of poisoning include dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision, tachycardia, loss of balance, staggering, headache, rash, flushing, dry mouth and throat, slurred speech, urinary retention, constipation, confusion, hallucinations, delirium, and convulsions.[32][34][35] The root of the plant is generally the most toxic part, though this can vary from one specimen to another. Ingestion of a single leaf of the plant can be fatal to an adult.[31] Casual contact with the leaves can cause skin pustules. The berries pose the greatest danger to children because they look attractive and have a somewhat sweet taste.[36] The consumption of two to five berries by children and ten to twenty berries by adults can be lethal. In 2009 a case of A. belladonna being mistaken for blueberries, with six berries ingested by an adult woman, was documented to result in severe anticholinergic syndrome.[37] The plant's deadly symptoms are caused by atropine's disruption of the parasympathetic nervous system's ability to regulate involuntary activities such as sweating, breathing, and heart rate. The antidote for atropine poisoning is physostigmine or pilocarpine.[38] A. belladonna is also toxic to many domestic animals, causing narcosis and paralysis.[39] However, cattle and rabbits eat the plant seemingly without suffering harmful effects.[35] In humans its anticholinergic properties will cause the disruption of cognitive capacities like memory and learning.[33]

Again, I'm not recommending to swallow bitter components of fruits on purpose, because I have a hunch that the mechanism of it being healthy is that it stimulates the immune system and keeps it strong as yes, bitters usually signal toxins, but in the case of fruit seeds or inner peels, it's not going to do much harm, just like getting a little bit of dirt on your hands and accidentally licking your fingers when eating fruit by hand isn't going to kill you, but probably better stimulate your immune system to the environment as opposed to living in a bubble, free of germs, and then getting exposed to them all at once. Same concept with bitter taste receptors which stimulate the body.

And as far as babies or any other state of humans knowing what is good for them, I totally disagree. We are much like rats in that we can become accustomed to live on nearly anything that won't rapidly kill us, mostly determined by 'mirroring' our caretakers or others around us in the case of babies (who mirror just about everything they can), and are very poor instinctively at being selective eaters, like camels or snakes. Our 'survival' instinct is to mirror others and learn that way. Wild modern humans have been seen to mirror dogs when not in the presence of humans, or even mirror other wild animals, and behave like them, walk on all fours, eat their same diet, and make their same sounds.

So basically yes, modern people mostly live in dirt free, bitters free, grounding free environments, and I think there is plenty of logical evidence to support that these clean and sheltered environments are a negative health factor and can easily be corrected in part by stimulating your immune system by something as simple as digestive grape bitters on the back of the tongue, then spitting it out, maybe once every two weeks.
overkees
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad or good?

Post by overkees »

Sweetness often masks the taste of bitterness. Only tasting wasabi is already very calming and soothing, from personal experience.

I agree with the salmon part, if it is really fresh I prefer to eat it without the ginger. That is why I NEED ginger with my thawed salmon, because otherwise I will get an upset stomache if I eat more than 150g in one setting. This indicates to me that it is a very good thing to ingest ginger with it. My body learns me this. Same goes with herring, if the herring is fresh I don't want onions with it. If it is older than one day I NEED onions with it. I think it has to do with the bacterial content. I don't exaggerete this fact. I don't eat 100g of ginger everytime I eat raw foods. I just sometimes, if my body tells me it, add a small piece of antimicrobal root with it.

Salmon that is not so fresh -> ginger
Herring that is not so fresh -> onions
Egg yolk that is not so fresh I simply will heat it up or need a lot of sugar with it

I think that ingesting too much bacteria is more harmful than ingesting a little bit of components of roots with your bacteria filled meal.. but i don't have a scientific proof. It's just a gut feeling :D
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad or good?

Post by Kasper »

I don't know much of this topic I have to admit.
But I'm glad there is finally an active topic where I share the opinion of RRM. :)

Just to post some random things to consider (for the people who read more studies)
1. When people get fever, they generally don't like sweet stuff.
2. I know a lot of people who love sour/bitter things.

A friend of me will always chose a green banana above a ripe banana.
Always chose sour orange juice above sweet orange juice.

Another friend of me, is the opposite.
Dislikes every fruit on earth (that I tested on him), except mandarins and only when he removes ALL the fibre/pulp and only if they are VERY ripe.

A little speculation:

When people are born they favour sweet and dislike sour/bitter tasting food.
I think most people agree on this.
But during the years we eat all sort of foods.
When there will be no inflammatory reaction on this. Our body learns that it's okay to eat it.
Our body learns that it gets energy from it. And it is going to like the taste.

Let's pick my first friend. When fruit is very ripe, it has a higher bacteria content.
Maybe he can't handle this bacteria content, and therefore it likes the sour fruit with lower bacteria content.
He describes sour orange juice as "fresh". While other people would have spit the same juice out.
His body learned that sour content didn't do him that much harm and oj provides him energy.
Maybe that sour taste even helps him to get rid of bacteria in his gut that are harming him.

My other friend, maybe can't digest the pulp properly.
Body gets inflammatory reaction, and therefore it will disgust the pulp.

Let's consider my mom.
She loves sour and bitter as well. She disgust everything that tastes a little bit too sweet.
I think she can't handle too much sugar in one serving.
And of course, when she takes a ripe banana, she eat the whole thing (because that is "normal").
More sugar than she can handle --> sugar spike --> inflammation reaction --> never going to eat it again.

Okay, but when there is sweet combined with addictive substances.
Our body will not feel the pain of the inflammation and therefore will keep eating it anyway.

Conclusion:
I'm getting a little bit more sure about this since I'm thinking about this.
I think the food that we favour which contain no addictive substances are the food which cause our the least pain.

Because that is human drive #1. Avoiding pain. In other words, the foods that don't cause any inflammation. Or food that hide pain (addictive substances).
Human drive #2, gain pleasure. Sweetness, energy dense food, salt.

A human being will only take action (consume food) if the balance between those favors pleasure.
To take overkees example:
Ginger and onions are both not addictive.
The reason he likes to eat it with his fish can only mean that those food:
1. Avoid pain or 2. Give him pleasure

Now, most will agree that both foods are not likely to give much pleasure.
So, it must be, that those food help him to avoid pain/inflammation.
If you want to recover your gut, its critical that micro villi don't get inflamed.
Conclusion: it's wise for overkees to eat ginger/onions with his fish.

Excuse me for the chaos in my post.
I just changed my opinion 10 times when writing this post.
Final verdict:
1. If you are healthy and eat healthy (the wai diet for example) you don't like bitter/sour substances and you don't need them.
2. People sometimes learn to prefer bitter/sour (addictive free) substances. This can only be because of less inflammation. And this signal the body gives should be taken seriously!
overkees
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad or good?

Post by overkees »

Take my mother for instance: 60-70% of the calories of her diet consists of carrots, (an afwul lot of) cabbage, cucumber, courgette, green bell pepper, rettich, onions, garlic, turmeric, ginger, spinache, tomato, egg plants.

She also eats a few eggs and sometimes raw fish a week. Since I told her how much more healthy raw fish is than cooking it. But she prefers nuts to animal products. With an extreme preference for walnuts and macadamias. She LOVES cheese, but it is eaten in moderation since I pointed out some things to her.

She really really dislikes sweet tasting things, except for berries, prunes, pineapple and khaki. She can eat alot of these if those are in the house. She sometimes eats bananas. One glass of grapefruit juice is also very welcomed. But not too much of it.

This is pretty much her diet all her life, she only eliminated grains for 2 years and does not eat hot measl my dad cooked for evening dinner anymore. Because of problems with heart pressure previously and the conversations with me. Since she has done this her blood pressure, that was extremely high (almost immediate hospilization) is back to normal now. She apparently reacts heavily on grains and cooked meat, which my dad cooked alot. She has a very high meal frequency. She CRAVES fiber, if I juice the carrots she doesn't like them anymore. She has no gut problems.

I can't imagine eating a diet like that. I like to drink instead of eating and prefer sweet drinks. I did this all my life, I just swapped to fruit juices instead of soda and iced tea and such. Now I think it apparantly is what her body needs and if she eats fruits she will feel lethargic because of the large ups and downs I think. She has conditioned her body into eating this way and if she is going wai she will not ALOOOOOOOOOOOT of time to adapt and it will not be a good thing to do in my opinion (if I only see what a can of coca cola does to her (extreme sweating and gut problems), which she drank one time out of necessity). The body learns to survive on the diet it gets so it will use it optimally.
panacea
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Re: Bitter fruits are bad or good?

Post by panacea »

lol wow, just forget i said anything i cant believe i still post on this forum anyway

btw kasper that line 'im getting a little bit more sure about this as i think about this' was priceless man
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