No Banana

About consuming fruits; fresh, dried or juiced.
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Aytundra
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No Banana

Post by Aytundra »

1) If one were on a strict 100% wai diet, would one be deficient in nutrients especially vitamin B6 if bananas were omitted from this diet?
2) If one were on a strict 100% wai diet, would one be over accumulating in other nutrients other than vitamin B6 if one had to consume other partially abundant vitamin B6 items to compensate for the lack of bananas?

Assumption: "100% wai diet" in these questions assumes 100% raw fruit and raw meat diet, no veggies, no cooked foods, no starchy/fibre food items.
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Oscar
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Re: No Banana

Post by Oscar »

Salmon, walnuts, mackerel, avocado, dried dates all contain B6, so if you eat any of those foods regularly, you should be fine.
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Re: No Banana

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:1) If one were on a strict 100% wai diet, would one be deficient in nutrients especially vitamin B6 if bananas were omitted from this diet?
That depends on what fruits you eat.
Apples, for example, are not very helpful.
Just submit your version of the 100% Wai diet to the nutrient calculator to check it.
2) If one were on a strict 100% wai diet, would one be over accumulating in other nutrients other than vitamin B6 if one had to consume other partially abundant vitamin B6 items to compensate for the lack of bananas?
It all depends on what you eat, exactly.
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Aytundra
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Re: No Banana

Post by Aytundra »

Salmon and mackerel; I will be over eating in B12 vitamins.
Walnuts; I will be over eating in Manganese Mn and Copper Cu.
Avocados; I will be over eating in Pantheoate, but to over eat in that means I will have to eat a lot of avocados, this will be a money factor$$$ guacamole prices are predicted to increase this year. Also there is the time factor, to much waiting for it to ripe.
By the way,Avocado, Grapes, Almonds, Walnuts and Orange prices are predicted to be more expensive if there is global warming.
https://www.llnl.gov/str/March07/pdfs/03_07.3.pdf
Dried dates looks unappetizing to me, as unappetizing as Maillard reacted foods or moose droppings, yucky, I will not touch it.
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RRM
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Re: No Banana

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:Salmon and mackerel; I will be over eating in B12 vitamins.
What makes you think so?
Avocados; I will be over eating in Pantheoate
What makes you think so?
Also there is the time factor, to much waiting for it to ripe.
That is a non-issue.
Suppose it takes a week to ripe;
Buy 2 avocados every day.
After a week, from this moment on you will have two ripe avocados every day.
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Aytundra
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Re: No Banana

Post by Aytundra »

I will rephrase it to:
Nutritionally, bananas are “quite” complementary, but not essential; Non-Essential Definition1: other foods can supply the nutrient, and Non-Essential Definition2: not essential in the pure sense that it is the solo food to subsist on in the diet", as the mistake made in some cultures of eating their staple food solo, once they have found their staple food (either forced by famine, environment, social factors or individual reasons). Although bananas can be thought of as not essential, in reality bananas plays a crucial role in the ease of obtaining mass amounts of nutrients, much like the role pinto beans (potatoes, squash and yams) served as a staple in some diets.
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RRM
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Re: No Banana

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:in reality bananas plays a crucial role in the ease of obtaining mass amounts of nutrients
Crucial?
No.
In your reality? Maybe.
Juice is more easy to digest, particularly sieved juice.
And more balanced, regarding nutrients.
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Aytundra
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Re: No Banana

Post by Aytundra »

Crucial? maybe not to you specifically, but see the Diet Diaries, many people eat bananas, and some people frequently mention the ease of obtaining bananas, some with research references for the nutrition of banana too; while others that cannot talk, have banana in their juice mix as a staple very frequently, and variations of banana combinations.

My reality? Nope: No bananas yet, at least not in the last 2 days. Bananas are not necessary in my diet yet, because I am consuming alternative foods with vitamin B6. a.k.a. staples of other cultural diets that contain the vitamin B6. - Huh, I am surprised I was tripped into eating potatoes yesterday. I just got my vitamin B6 from rice, yams, and potatoes, those will be my major sources of B6 today on April 11, 2014.

RRM you are leading the topic astray. Juice is not mentioned here. I have the juice yield experiment topic to address that. This topic is not about juicing bananas, it is not about juicing bananas to easily obtain more of the banana. If you want to convince me to accept your opinion that juicing fruits is better than not juicing fruits, you already have my agreement on that matter, here I will say: Juice is much more easy to absorb than non-sieved juice, and non-juiced fruits. Happy?

This topic is about the nature of Banana’s role in this diet, and back to the main questions:
Aytundra wrote:1) If one were on a strict 100% wai diet, would one be deficient in nutrients especially vitamin B6 if bananas were omitted from this diet?

and
Oscar wrote:Salmon, walnuts, mackerel, avocado, dried dates all contain B6, so if you eat any of those foods regularly, you should be fine.
For the first question Oscar answered it very well because:

Oscar omitted the banana from the Wai diet. Oscar replaced vitamin B6 of the banana with other foods rich in vitamin B6 (and bonus points for Oscar because he did not limit himself in thought to only vitamin B6 of fruit as RRM did with the apple, Wai diet is more than just fruits and the question was open to all Wai food items.). And finally, Oscar’s reply finishes off with addressing the issue of “would one be deficient in nutrients?”, and Oscar says “if you eat any of those foods regularly, you should be fine.” “Fine” as in Oscar was referring to the Vitamin B6 component of the question, while eating Oscar’s suggested food items.

Well Done Oscar on Part 1! 
and for RRM
RRM wrote: “That depends on what fruits you eat.”
Yes, it depends on what one would eat on a Wai diet. But be more specific. You did not address the question’s challenge of could one be deficient in vitamin B6 without banana. You said:
RRM wrote: “Apples, for example, are not very helpful.”

Fine you are saying that one will be deficient in vitamin B6 if one replaced banana with apple. I agree apples are not very helpful. One would be overeating in carbohydrates, vitamin C and copper before one reaches the B6. In the case of apples in an apple pie or apple sauce, vitamin C will be diminished by the heat treatment, in effect one will be overeating in carbohydrates and copper before they reach enough vitamin B6.
Aytundra wrote: 2) If one were on a strict 100% wai diet, would one be over accumulating in other nutrients other than vitamin B6 if one had to consume other partially abundant vitamin B6 items to compensate for the lack of bananas?
I expected Oscar to attempt my second question, because Oscar did very well in answering the first question.

Aytundra tried to answer question 2 while using Oscar’s foods for vitamin B6:
Salmon and mackerel; one will be over eating in B12 vitamins.
Avocados; one will be over eating in Pantheoate,
Dates; one will be over eating in Copper Cu.
Walnuts; one will be over eating in Manganese Mn and Copper Cu.

Aytundra assumed one consumed other partially abundant vitamin B6 items other than the banana, and addressed the issue of over accumulation of other nutrients in the diet.

RRM asked why Salmon, mackerel, and avocadoes will have an over accumulation of Vitamin B12, Vitamin B12, and Pantheoate respectively. But RRM omitted to ask Aytundra about the Walnuts’ over accumulation in Manganese and Copper.

Aytundra now replies, just like the walnut peaks in Manganese and Copper nutrients, by consuming Walnuts for Vitamin B6 would mean an over accumulation of Manganese and Copper nutrients. For a lot of fish species, vitamin B12 peaks easily.
Avocado peaks in Panteoate. In general though, Aytundra wants to comment that avocados can be viewed like a garbage bin of nutrients, it has so many types of nutrients.
Aytundra wrote: …obtaining mass amounts of nutrients.
mass amounts of Vitamin B6.

RRM attempts to answer question 2:
RRM wrote: “It all depends on what you eat, exactly.”
Of course it all depends on what you eat exactly. How can this answer be wrong or debatable? This is a non-answer.

- sighs, reluctantly gives RRM participation marks 30% on both questions.
- Oscar gets 100% on question 1.
- Aytundra 0% for failing to address question 2 completely, and clearly delivering her answers.
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Re: No Banana

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:
RRM wrote:
Aytundra wrote:in reality bananas plays a crucial role in the ease of obtaining mass amounts of nutrients
Crucial?
No.
maybe not to you specifically, but see the Diet Diaries, many people eat bananas
...
Juice is not mentioned here.
This is a thread in the Wai forum.
The Wai diet includes juices.
Its very easy to obtain mass amounts of nutrients through various juices.
So, no, banana is not crucial in this diet.
Salmon and mackerel; one will be over eating in B12 vitamins.
Avocados; one will be over eating in Pantheoate
"over eating"?
You think eating a lot of salmon (by humans, not by fish) might have a negative impact because of high B12 intake?
You also think eating a lot of avocadoes might have adverse effects because of high B5 intake?
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Aytundra
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Re: No Banana

Post by Aytundra »

My apologies, I should have been specific in my wording.
I will rephrase it to: "In reality bananas plays a crucial role in the ease of obtaining mass amounts of Vitamin B6."

Juices. Juiced bananas will yield a good amount of B6.
Un-juiced bananas will also yield a good amount of B6.
Juiced = dietary fiber removed from fruit.
Yes, I agree juice are part of Wai diet, from a nutrition absorption perspective juicing is an excellent way of getting more out of the same fruit.
But from a practical or social perspective. That will be for another page of debate. Where you can talk to ecological/anthropological Aytundra.

Personally, I think high intake of B12 would not have much of a "negative impact".
Personally, I think high intake of B5 would not have "adverse effects".
But that is what I personally think.

But my question was would you be over accumulating in other vitamins other than B6?
And in effect your response indirectly implies, yes B12 will be over accumulated and B5 will be over accumulated, and based on how you phrased the question for me, I think, you think, that you do not think B12 or B5 will have a negative impact or adverse effects, respectively.

Okay so mission is accomplished, for the first two questions. Summary:
1) One will not be deficient in B6 if one omits banana and eats other wai foods that are under Oscar's food items listed above.
2) One will be over accumulating in other nutrients while making up for the B6 with Oscar's foods for B6 replacement listed so far.

Next, Negative or positive impact of over accumulated specific types of nutrients is up for debate.
Debateable Statement: It might actually be nice to over accumulate in B12 and B5, but not Manganese and Copper.
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Re: No Banana

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:One will be over accumulating in other nutrients while making up for the B6 with Oscar's foods for B6 replacement listed so far.
No, that depends on what you eat.
The nutrient calculator will show you the way to go.
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Re: No Banana

Post by Kasper »

I think you are overgeneralizing a lot.
And I've no idea why you're question would be interesting.

From all the practical diets that I've seen without bananas, (not theoratical diets)
most of them meet the RDA of vitamin B6,
and I can't remember any of them being high in some specific nutrient in a way that it could be problematic.
Salmon and mackerel; I will be over eating in B12 vitamins.
Drink 4L of orange juice and 60 gram of salmon, and you will be deficient in B12 and meet the RDA of B6...
2) One will be over accumulating in other nutrients while making up for the B6 with Oscar's foods for B6 replacement listed so far.
This statement means nothing, as you don't tell us what you think overaccumelating is.
You seem to use a definition like, if it is much more than the RDA, then you overaccumelating vitamins.
In this sense, all most any version of the wai diet is overaccumlating in vitamin C.
1) One will not be deficient in B6 if one omits banana and eats other wai foods that are under Oscar's food items listed above.
If you drink 2L of mango juice, you will be fine as well.
If you drink 4L of OJ and 6 egg yolks, you are fine as well.
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Re: No Banana

Post by Aytundra »

Kasper wrote: From all the practical diets that I've seen without bananas, (not theoratical diets)
most of them meet the RDA of vitamin B6,
and I can't remember any of them being high in some specific nutrient in a way that it could be problematic.
Very nice observation Kasper! I felt the same way too when I looked at the diets, I looked at both Wai and Non-Wai diets. Vitamin B6 is inescapable. Somehow, the body will find a source of it somewhere to add to the diet.
Kasper wrote: You seem to use a definition like, if it is much more than the RDA, then you overaccumelating vitamins.
That is actually quite quite close to what I am thinking. Kasper has abilities to read minds. I used RDA as a rough benchmark, since RDA is so so common, but that benchmark can be changed to something else, because some RDA benchmarks are not the greatest of benchmark.
Kasper wrote: In this sense, all most any version of the wai diet is overaccumlating in vitamin C.
The Wai diet is over accumulating in vitamin C, in my perspective. But I also perceive this as a non-issue because this over accumulation can easily be solved by bringing a little heat or time, and vitamin C, will degrade.

The same with carbohydrates and sugars, these can be over accumulating in some cases. But this is a non-issue because carbohydrates and sugars can easily be solved by a little exercise, to use up the energy.

But something like Manganese and Copper are actually harder to fight. How can you remove excess amounts of these, or balance them out?
Kasper wrote: Salmon and mackerel; I will be over eating in B12 vitamins.
Drink 4L of orange juice and 60 gram of salmon, and you will be deficient in B12 and meet the RDA of B6...
Grins, finally someone actually brave enough to use the calculator!
Kasper scores 101%.
Kasper balanced the equation (like a chemistry question) and used up the limiting reagent B6, and showed he could also exhaust the B12 component. Now he has about~30-45 more nutrients more to balance(number of nutrients depends on the RDA he uses, Wai contains 43 lines on the calculator). On his next exercise of balancing this theoretical diet equation. I think he should target, vitamin C (over accumulating), potassium,and magnesium (under accumulating)…etc.

As Kasper progresses to balance out the other nutrients, I think he will think balancing a food equation becomes complicated.

Here is a hint: It becomes easier if you have keystone food items to control for each nutrient.
Kasper wrote: I think you are overgeneralizing a lot. And I've no idea why you're question would be interesting.
(Because I had hidden motives.) Kasper has the ability to detect something more.


My proximate purpose was to say banana is a keystone food to control B6. Because banana peaks in B6 in RDA values. If one becomes deficient in B6, one could take banana as a supplement.

My ulterior motive in support of my proximate purpose was to say banana is a keystone food in the Wai diet because, the ecology of economics promotes bananas to be brought more easily.

My ultimate purpose was to say it becomes easier if you have keystone food items to control for each nutrient. B6 bananas, B12 fish, Thiamin orange…etc.
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Re: No Banana

Post by Kasper »

My ultimate purpose was to say it becomes easier if you have keystone food items to control for each nutrient. B6 bananas, B12 fish, Thiamin orange…etc.
I think it is mistake for people that begin this diet to vary to much in the things they eat.
I think the digestive system works best if say 70-80% of what your eat is quite the same every day.
People may think this is boring, but normal western diet are also quite constant.
For example, my mother eats bread, cheese, butter, beef quite constantly every day for example.

For example. See orange juice as the new bread. See olive oil as the new butter. See egg yolk as the new cheese. See salmon as the new beef.
If you are going to vary very much in what you eat daily, then it may be interesting to have such keystone foods.
But I think it is better to make sure your diet is 70-80% the same every day.
And use the nutritional calculator to see if with this diet you cover most of your vitamins.
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Re: No Banana

Post by dime »

Agreed with Kasper, I even think going for 99% the same food at the same time every day is the best.
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