Bones, calcium, and milk

There are lots of rules you can break; so thats what happens a lot...
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Yominco
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Bones, calcium, and milk

Post by Yominco »

Hello, I'm new to this site. I've looked at it and found the information to be interesting, but I am a bit skeptical.

While many of the dietary suggestions are intriguing, I don't feel that the Wai diet could fit my lifestyle. I'm only 16 years old, so I pretty much eat what I am given. Also, I am uncertain about the validity of the information about this diet.

Anyhow, I have read a bit about milk, and decided that not drinking milk anymore is something that I would be able to do. Apparently doing this would be in my best interest.

However, I am scared at the thought of after a lifetime of drinking milk (all 16 years of my life) that my bones will weaken and fracture. I have not had any milk for about a week and a half. My hip feels a little sore, and on the inside of my shin there is a slight bruise on the skin, and the bone is somewhat sore to the touch.

Of course, I run, jump, and exercise a lot, as any kid my age would. I am seriously concerned about my bones. After a 16 year lifetime of drinking LOTS of milk, have my bones developed differently than if I had not drunk milk my whole life? After drinking milk for my whole life so far, is it possible/better for me to stop drinking milk? Since it is apparently good not to drink it, that sounds like what I should do.

In summary, I am very concerned about my health. Please help me, give me some true facts! I'm worried!
panacea
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Post by panacea »

Did you notice these bone effects shortly after reading about milks effect on bones? if so, it's probably largely psychological, as I don't think we can feel weak bones at 16 without a serious problem..

It's unlikely is all I'm saying.. but yes milk is bad for you. Ever seen a wild animal besides a calf sucking on a cows tit? Nope.. so why would you?
It's meant for calves, and not for human consumption.. at all. Despite what the milk industry wants you to believe no matter how much genetic selection they do they can't create milk from a cow that's ok for humans.

Yes it does over time hurt bones, and I'm sure a ton of other stuff. A lot of people are allergic to it for a reason.

On another note one could argue that carnivores can consume that kind of milk, but then you have to remember industrial milk is usually filled with hormones and all kinds of unnatural stuff anyway, and we're not carnivores.
Yominco
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Post by Yominco »

Thank you very much for responding.

You are probably correct about the whole psychological effect. That is often strong in me.

Despite that, what I understand is that the milk industry is lying to us that milk is good for you, and that we should intake more calcium than we need. So how much calcium do we really need for healthy bones? If you don't get enough calcium, will your bones be unhealthy?

Thanks again.
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

There is a minimum amount of calcium we need. Eating our 'natural' foods, we easily get that amount.

What are you skeptical about?
Yominco
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Post by Yominco »

What is the minumum amount of calcium we need? Is there a specific number of calcium in mg? I don't want to have to guess about how much it really is.

I'm probably just very skeptical about the Wai diet because it's so different from the dietary guidelines I know/follow. Living in the USA truth can become very distorted, and corrupted.

For example, I have eaten lots of cooked food and meat every day of my life, but the Wai diet says don't eat cooked food at all. Also, it feels like the Wai diet is almost not eating enough. All my life I've been specifically taught things like how important it is to drink milk. Surely you can understand it would be difficult to drop almost all of my diet I've had my whole life in exchange for information I find on the internet.

Also, being only a 16 year old, I don't have lots of options of what to eat. Since I'm still just a kid I don't have much choice, and pretty much have to eat what is given to me, or else I can't get enough to eat! I eat what my mom cooks, and when I go to things like camps I have to eat what they give me or else I can't eat at all. It would seem impossible to follow the Wai diet with my lifestyle.
panacea
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Post by panacea »

you have to realize the internet is just a (really good) way to find information, be it true or false, it's up to you to discern the two. Despite what everyone else believes, there are still wars, crime, people dying en masse by disease, poor health, obesity, you get the picture. So obviously the status quo of modern humans is not perfect, or near it. Now look at the non-human animal world, they are near perfect in terms of no war, no obesity, good health, etc, unless captivated and fed by humans. By this reasoning we can discern as truth that our most natural diet is a good guideline, and perhaps with our intelligence we can make it more convenient. The task then becomes finding what our true natural diet is. There is a lot of evidence for this but in summary as I don't have time to go through everything, your hands dont have claws, you can't run on four legs thus being ourtun by most prey, etc etc, so you're not a carnivore. your teeth aren't meant for tearing apart flesh, your salivary enzymes are meant for fruits/sugar, not vegetation. it's a No Brainer that all cooked food isn't your natural diet at all. your internal organs came before tools and fire, they evolved on a cook-less diet.etc etc moral of the story is your natural diet was probably a mix between 80-95% fruits, 5-10% animal food like shellfish on the side of the beach, or some kind of small animal that was easy to get, probably some insects, some tender vegetation maybe, but mostly fruits. and I 'think', mostly tree-hanging fruits but I could be wrong. We were probably a lot like rat-monkeys, scavenger fruit eaters. This is all theory, but it makes more sense than cooked food or prepared grains. (you dont think grass looks tasty do you? you gotta use fire to make grains look like yummy pizza..) so anyway, yes its radical, yes its true, yes it's difficult, because you're not living in a world that accepts it, and definitely not a fresh fruit abundant land.. the solution? get an olympus orangex citrus juicer (manual), buy 10 or so valencia oranges a day (about 7 days in advance before using for ripeness, you want sweet not acidicy), juice them, sieve them if you want, add some olive oil and sugar to the juice, keep it refrigerated, keep a liter coffee mug which is designed for thermal uses to keep the orange juice cold while carrying, use a straw through the sip hole in the coffee mug, preferably a stainless steel or glass straw so you dont have to depend on buying plastic leeching ones over and over. then you have a staple 'food', which has sugar, nutrients, and fat in it. that will keep you going, sip it throughout the day, and fill the rest of your diet, try and buy in season, and try and get a large variety so you get all the good nutrients. and then supplement with egg yolks (remove the whites and yolk sack, put it on some frozen tilipia or frozen wild salmon), keep eating some animal food like this consistently with some whole fruit, and using OJ for convenience staple food and you'll not only be healthy the rest of your life (assuming you arent around environmental hazards.. like toxic air or radiation), you'll have an easier life by far, less stress, better mental capacity, etc. your life will use this good diet as leverage and do better in school, with girls, parents, all things.. eventually you will be able to afford it and consider this food more important than a new xbox.. life will be 100x more vivid. Always fine tune, look for more efficient ways to do things, better health.. like maybe taking care of oxygen-making houseplants for better indoor air if your indoors a lot.. gives more leverage.. leverage leverage leverage use it and you'll be happy and succeed :)

that's all surviving in this modern USA is about, find efficient ways to manage yourself and someday you'll be a great asset to the economy and that's $ for you to keep up the high expense fruit lifestyle. You might have to convince your family, but I didn't.

Or you can be a doped up on food addiction-average joe who smells and sucks a cows tit :)
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

I'm not aware of a specific number, maybe RRM knows more. I do know that calcium requirements are quite low, and deficiency is unlikely in a normal diet. Research from 1951 (1) stated:
The minimum calcium requirement of adult males is
probably so low that deficiency is unlikely on most natural
diets. When calcium supplies are limited, little effort should
be made to increase the consumption of calcium by men.

Looking at my own diet, I'm getting 250mg per day.

Don't get me wrong, I think being skeptical is a good thing. Most people are not skeptical at all and follow everyone else, or so-called experts, without question. So be skeptical and question everything, including everything that is presented on this site.

There are numerous factors which played a role in how people got to eat what they eat today, for example tradition and commercial reasons. That doesn't mean it's the most healthy or the most optimal for our bodies.

We can already learn a lot by looking at nature. For instance: no other species heats its food. No other species drinks milk except mother's milk. No other species daily eats food which they cannot digest properly. Etc.
Yominco wrote:Also, it feels like the Wai diet is almost not eating enough.
This has 2 reasons:
1. the food we eat does not contain any appetite enhancers like in cooked food, so we eat what we need, instead of eating too much
2. the food we eat is high in nutrients we use, so we need less of it
Yominco wrote:Surely you can understand it would be difficult to drop almost all of my diet I've had my whole life in exchange for information I find on the internet.
I think most of the people who follow this diet (myself included) have done this. ;)

I understand your situation, so I would suggest you read through the articles on the site, ask your questions on this forum, and decide what you want to do. Maybe you decide to follow the diet as much as you can, or wait a few years until you can decide for yourself, or decide all we say is rubbish and forget about it.

(1) A STUDY OF THE MINIMUM CALCIUM REQUIREMENTS OF ADULT MEN by D. M. Hegsted, Irma Hoscoso and Carlos Collazos Ch.
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Yominco wrote:If you don't get enough calcium, will your bones be unhealthy?
The younger you are, the more calcium you need (relative to your weight) to grow strong bones.
The funny thing is that even children in countries where they dont consume any milk, develop perfectly healthy bones.
No matter what diet, in whatever country, you will develop perfectly healthy bones.
How little calcium you need is shown by nature;
Babies need much more calcium than we do (relative to weight) and yet mothers milk contains 4 times less calcium than cows milk,
apparently because thats all we need when we are that young,
and becomes less as we grow up.

Actually, the whole "brittle bones" issue has never been about children, or about growing strong bones.
No, this issue only became an issue due to bone loss in elderly, after they previously had strong bones.
Then scientists speculated that one might prevent that bone-loss in elderly by stacking extra calcium in the bones of perfectly healthy young people.
The idea was: the more you put into the bones, the longer it takes to lose it.
Which, in a way, makes sense, but it appeared to be a bit too simplistic,
as in countries where most milk is consumed,
most people suffer from fractures due to brittle bones.
Yominco
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Post by Yominco »

Thank you for your responses. I appreciate your kindness and understanding.

It looks like I don't need to worry about calcium anymore.

Regarding the Wai diet, I would have to say that I can't disagree with what is said on the website. It does make sense, and there isn't really any way to disprove what is said about the Wai diet or the "modern" diet.

I will take the Wai way into consideration, and it will have an impact on my food choices in the future.
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

Good to hear. If you have any/more questions, be sure to ask them.
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