Gerson Therapy to treat cancer; Wai diet response

Cancer, Diabetes, Osteoporosis etc.
gracie
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Joined: Sat 27 Feb 2010 13:29

Postby gracie » Sat 17 Apr 2010 00:52

Thanks, RRM!
Actually, i know nothing;
That's what Socrates would say. You're so wise! :) ha ha.
Its the same as when you have a fever, due a viral infection.
Your body will not like to eat something, as it does not want to waste any energy on digestion.
(digestion requires a lot of energy)
It wants to direct all energy to fight the enemy (creating radicals to kill the virus),
Just to be sure; drinking something fiber-less like juice during a fever doesn't count as a burden, does it?
The lower the blood amino acid levels, the more active thsoe enzymes will become
Ok, and you're talking about the protein-decomposing enzymes that clean up useless or malfunctioning cells (cancer cells).
And by keeping the amino acid levels low, you activate them. Okay, got it.

I have a question; is it possible to elevate these enzymes with a supplement?
But, if you only eat plant protein (fruit, veggies etc), the protein quality will be low,
so that relatively much of the ingested protein will be worthless,
and not utilized for (re)construction purposes,
so that relatively much amino acids remain in the blood (not good regarding activity of protein-decomposing enzymes)
I'm confused; so you're saying that if you eat low-quality protein from plants, it will NOT keep amino acid levels low (despite the fact that you're ingesting only a little protein) because...the protein is low-quality and thus not useful for (re)construction...and this will affect amino acid levels? (Our goal being to keep them high.)
Arghhh, sorry!

In my opinion it would be more effective to replace the grains by Brazil nuts (with the same amount of protein),
so that the overall protein quality is much higher and less redundant amino acids remain.
I'm curious about nuts now. Is the digestion of nut-protein less of a burden on the body (that is fighting a fever, or cancer) than animal protein? It has way more fiber than, say, egg yolk, so it seems like it would be more of a burden.

Thanks
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RRM
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Postby RRM » Sat 17 Apr 2010 05:57

gracie wrote: Just to be sure; drinking something fiber-less like juice during a fever doesn't count as a burden, does it?
Correct. (its just a little burden)
I have a question; is it possible to elevate these enzymes with a supplement?
No, they dont get absorbed, but decomposed by the digestive tract.
Even if they could be chemically composed, and fed intravenuously,
then there might be too many, also destroying vital tissue.
I'm confused; so you're saying that if you eat low-quality protein from plants, it will NOT keep amino acid levels low (despite the fact that you're ingesting only a little protein) because...the protein is low-quality and thus not useful for (re)construction...and this will affect amino acid levels? (Our goal being to keep them high.)
When one has cancer, the goal is to keep blood amino acid levels low,
because that activates those protein-decomposing enzymes.
Only a small part of plant protein is useful for (re)construction purposes.
The rest of those amino acids are therefore not taken up from the blood into cells,
so that they remain in the blood, elevating blood amino acid level some what.
(keep in mind, there are levels for each amino acid, so that some levels may be elevated
whereas others will be very low, such as methionine and cysteine)

Consuming some Brazil nuts (high in methionine / cysteine), some of those remaining (elevated levels) amino acids in the blood suddenly become useful,
and may therefore get taken up in cells as part of a new construction.
Hence a lower level of those amino acids in the blood.
I'm curious about nuts now. Is the digestion of nut-protein less of a burden on the body (that is fighting a fever, or cancer) than animal protein?
No, more burden indeed.
Its just that Brazil nuts contain such relative high levels of methionine
that they would more effectively lower the level of (up till then 'useless') amino acids remaining in the blood.
More effectively than animal protein.
Hmm, even more effective would be a methionine supplement, naturally.

Also, one would have to monitor all blood amino acid levels,
to be accurately able to know which amino acid to take by supplement,
as your metabolism will slightly change due to the cancer (more gluthatione produced, for example).
Supplementing the least available amino acid reduces the highest levels of amino acids.
gracie
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Joined: Sat 27 Feb 2010 13:29

Postby gracie » Mon 19 Apr 2010 02:59

Ah, ok! I have a tendency to mistype and I meant earlier that it is beneficial for amino acids to be low in the cancer-fighting body. But I'm slowly starting to understand all this, so that's good :)
Only a small part of plant protein is useful for (re)construction purposes.
The rest of those amino acids are therefore not taken up from the blood into cells,
so that they remain in the blood, elevating blood amino acid level some what.
Okay, so you're saying that to keep amino levels low, protein quality is important. And by protein quality you mean the availability of methionine and cystein in the protein. Because, relative to other required amino acids, these two are the most rare and thus valuable (http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html)

So would you say that a cancer patient needs to (hypothetically, only regarding diet):
eat low-quality protein food such as fruits, but include a little high-quality protein so that most of the low-quality protein is utilized and amino acid levels are reduced?

Also, regarding fruits: if you consume them without high-quality protein, could they really raise the amino acid levels to any significant degree?

Another question:
Are high amino acid levels the reason that consuming too much clean/raw protein can cause acne? Because excess amino acids ends up in the blood, just like dirty (useless) protein, and from there to the lymph, different organs, and finally the skin...
But if you eat high-quality raw protein, the amino acids would mainly be utilized and not end up in the skin.
If this is correct, why is it that so many acne-prone Wai dieters can't seem to handle Brazil nuts?

Also, I know we require the B12 and omega fats from animals food. But is another important reason we need them because we require their amino acids?
Or could we satisfy our amino acid requirements solely by eating fruits, if we eat the right combination (and without becoming protein-deficient, as fruits are low-protein-quality)?

Supplementing the least available amino acid reduces the highest levels of amino acids.
Ok, so that's why methionine/cystine supplement could be of use to cancer patients. Wow, I wonder if this has been tested!
(except there are problems with supplements, as you mentioned)

Last question: although Brazil nuts contain a lot of protein, you're saying they actually lower the protein levels in the blood (elevated by those amino acids taken up from eating fruit, for example).
Okay.
So would you say that eating Brazil nuts would be the best protein a cancer patient could eat? Even though yolk takes less energy to digest (I think)?

Thanks for your time, I'm learning so much!
gracie
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Joined: Sat 27 Feb 2010 13:29

Postby gracie » Mon 19 Apr 2010 03:07

I just googled for info on methionine supplements and found this:
http://www.raysahelian.com/methionine.html

I won't have time to read it, and it's looks like a lot of "science talk", but thought I'd post it anyway!
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RRM
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Postby RRM » Mon 19 Apr 2010 05:53

gracie wrote: Okay, so you're saying that to keep amino levels low, protein quality is important. And by protein quality you mean the availability of methionine and cystein in the protein. Because, relative to other required amino acids, these two are the most rare and thus valuable (http://www.13.waisays.com/protein.htm)
Yes, amino acids will only be taken up from the blood (into cells) if they are all
sufficiently available.
If one (or more) of them lacks, the other ones will not be taken up either.
So would you say that a cancer patient needs to (hypothetically, only regarding diet):
eat low-quality protein food such as fruits, but include a little high-quality protein so that most of the low-quality protein is utilized and amino acid levels are reduced?
No, they should eat little protein,
and only if that little protein is of low quality,
then amino acids should be supplemented to compensate for that.
Also, regarding fruits: if you consume them without high-quality protein, could they really raise the amino acid levels to any significant degree?
Eventually, yes.
Because if you keep on stacking A, B, C and D in the blood little by little
by not ingesting E,
their levels will be significantly higher after a while.
Keep in mind that the level of each amino acid can be substantially (from 100 up to 900%!!) raised individually
Are high amino acid levels the reason that consuming too much clean/raw protein can cause acne?
Yes.
But if you eat high-quality raw protein, the amino acids would mainly be utilized and not end up in the skin.
No, because you will not need more protein if you consume more.
How much you need determines how much will be taken up.
(unless to little is consumed, of course, as with Gerson's diet)
why is it that so many acne-prone Wai dieters can't seem to handle Brazil nuts?
I think it has to do with the extremely long shelf life of Brazil nuts (years).
Im just guessing, but maybe this does influence digestibility.
Also, I know we require the B12 and omega fats from animals food. But is another important reason we need them because we require their amino acids?
No, in the sense that plant food also contain all amino acids.
It just that you need more protein to get the same results.
(which is less healthy, and less good for your skin)
Or could we satisfy our amino acid requirements solely by eating fruits, if we eat the right combination (and without becoming protein-deficient, as fruits are low-protein-quality)?
If you dont include Brazil nuts, you cannot eat enough fruits to satisfy amino acid requirements.
So would you say that eating Brazil nuts would be the best protein a cancer patient could eat? Even though yolk takes less energy to digest (I think)?
That depends on the urgency of fighting the cancer, i guess.
With very little time on hand,
I would go for juices + methionine supplement.
When there is more time, I would go for an egg yolk a day,
because the effects on blood protein levels would not differ that much,
because its so easy to digest and because egg yolks also contain essential cholesterol and B12,
and its a 'vitamin supplement'.
gracie
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Joined: Sat 27 Feb 2010 13:29

Postby gracie » Mon 26 Apr 2010 22:25

Hi,
No, they should eat little protein,
and only if that little protein is of low quality,
then amino acids should be supplemented to compensate for that.
Ok, that makes sense!
Eventually, yes.
Because if you keep on stacking A, B, C and D in the blood little by little
by not ingesting E,
their levels will be significantly higher after a while. Keep in mind that the level of each amino acid can be substantially (from 100 up to 900%!!) raised individually
But eating fruits alone could never raise amino acid levels to the degree that raw protein could (causing acne), correct?
No, in the sense that plant food also contain all amino acids.
It just that you need more protein to get the same results.
(which is less healthy, and less good for your skin)
Could you explain a little further, please? Do you mean you need more protein from animal food to get the same results as you would eating plant food...or vice versa...oh god, I'm lost : )

If you dont include Brazil nuts, you cannot eat enough fruits to satisfy amino acid requirements.
I see, but if you include animal food with the fruit, could you get reach those requirements? Of course it would be less 'perfect' than including Brazil nuts, in this regard (you show salmon at 45% quality, versus Brazil at 91%)
That depends on the urgency of fighting the cancer, i guess.
With very little time on hand,
I would go for juices + methionine supplement.
When there is more time, I would go for an egg yolk a day,
because the effects on blood protein levels would not differ that much,
because its so easy to digest and because egg yolks also contain essential cholesterol and B12,
and its a 'vitamin supplement'.
Yay, I forced a cancer cure out of you! :lol: I've never done that.
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RRM
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Postby RRM » Wed 28 Apr 2010 09:54

gracie wrote:But eating fruits alone could never raise amino acid levels to the degree that raw protein could (causing acne), correct?
Actually, locally, it can,
in the same way that hunger can cause edema.
If you lack the most scarce amino acids, the levels of A, B, C and D
may be substantially elevated in some parts of your body relative to other parts,
and that may cause a severe shift in your water balance, causing localized edema.
(such as a pot belly)
gracie wrote:
Also, I know we require the B12 and omega fats from animals food. But is another important reason we need them because we require their amino acids?
No, in the sense that plant food also contain all amino acids.
It just that you need more protein to get the same results.
(which is less healthy, and less good for your skin)
Could you explain a little further, please? Do you mean you need more protein from animal food to get the same results as you would eating plant food...or vice versa...oh god, I'm lost : )
The other way around; more protein from plant food.
Except for plant foods such as Brazil nuts,
plant foods in general are relatively low in methionine / cysteine.
However, they do contain all amino acids; its just that the ratios are less good (relative to our requirements).
So that consuming 30 grams of animal food protein, in general may be as effective as consuming 40 grams of plant protein.
And consuming more protein has adverse effects regarding nitrogen
and regarding the levels of superfluous amino acids (acne).
So, yes, consuming amino acids from animal foods is more effective,
but strictly speaking, we dont need them.

If you dont include Brazil nuts, you cannot eat enough fruits to satisfy amino acid requirements.
I see, but if you include animal food with the fruit, could you get reach those requirements? Of course it would be less 'perfect' than including Brazil nuts, in this regard (you show salmon at 45% quality, versus Brazil at 91%)
Yes, with a combination of animal food and fruits, you always meet those amino acid requirements.
If you would include less fruits and more animal food, the overall average protein quality will go up.
The same goes for including Brazil nuts.
But, of course, its not just about amino acids, but also about vitamins
and energy (fruit sugars).
Yay, I forced a cancer cure out of you! :lol: I've never done that.
:lol:
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RRM
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Postby RRM » Fri 18 Jun 2010 18:01

From another thread:
Mr. PC wrote:Would egg yolks be a good option for an alcoholic with liver cancer?
Yes, as its very nutrient dense and easy to digest.
Please read this thread, as it may provide you with some info.
panacea
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Joined: Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:08

Postby panacea » Thu 24 Jun 2010 11:52

Don't be fooled by the white suits guys, chemotherapy is nothing more than a money-farm of death! The 'survival' or success rates are only recorded for 5 years, after that they can drop dead from being so poor of health from the chemotherapy and it's still a success. Also, the PLACEBO success rate for cancer is 3%... that's HIGHER than chemotherapy!!! By doing nothing out of the ordinary, people have a better chance of survival. While doctors have uses such as some surgeries, bandiging you up, checking you out, etc.. I would suggest that about 99% of their medicine or treatments for cancer are complete B.S. They don't even look into, or fund, natural remedy's on the whole because they are not profitable, not because they don't work.

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