vitamin D deficiency (ok /not ok?)

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Corinne
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vitamin D deficiency (ok /not ok?)

Post by Corinne »

I have a good friend (not converted yet) who has just been diagnosed with a serious vitamin D deficiency responsible (they say) for the fact that her bones are very (abnormally?) porous, at age 29 already. She's fine on calcium, just that her vitamin D level is too low to transport the calcium to her bones (am I putting this right?). The situation seems to make sense, but doctors have given her a mega dose of vitamin D in order to help that. Apparently she will get this huge dose once a year from now on! Seems very suspicious.
I would advise her to start eating raw egg yolks... Is there anything else I could advise her? Besides going 100% of course!

Ideas? Advice?
nick
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Post by nick »

Yolks and fish are the only two foods that actually have Vit. D, except for livers. She/he could start eating those for sure.
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Post by CurlyGirl »

Clearly your friend's condition is not unique: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medical ... wsid=40860

I would advise your friend (if she is willing) to do as much research as she can about this condition, in the medical journals, but not to take the high-doses (which I - and you, Corinne - suspect might be dangerous). I'd say, firstly follow Nick's advice to consume plenty of egg yolks and raw fish (if she can tolerate the fish). She could have the yolks with mashed banana and honey - very delicious.

As for the research, start here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract (an article about Vitamin D and the attainment of peak bone-mass in Finnish girls, from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition).

And here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract (from the journal of the German Society of Endocrinology - an article about low-vitamin-D and its association with increased bone resorption markers and lower bone density at the proximal femur in normal females).

Also here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract (article from the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, about Vitamin D in infancy and its relationship to bone-mass in puberty). Of course, not everything that is published in these journals is worth following/believing, so perhaps you can also try to get her to read RRM's osteoporosis research, and various other articles on the Wai site (perhaps it will get her motivated to 'convert').

Do you know what the source is of the vitamin D used for these high doses? (Just curious.)

I'm not sure I would agree that her current deficiency could be entirely blamed on an infancy without sunlight - there seem to be so many other possible factors... like, what has she been eating her whole life? Has she been exposed regularly to sunlight since age 1? Does she do any walking around to stimulate her bones? I am just trying to think of reasons; I certainly can't say I know everything about your friend's condition. But I am curious... Why was she deprived of the sun before the age of 1? Was she ill and confined to a bed?
CurlyGirl
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Post by CurlyGirl »

Something else: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract (article from the journal, Bone, about Vitamin D deficiency and its effects on rabbit skeletons). The experimenters found that Vitamin D deficiency 'did not produce significant changes in serum Ca levels, femur length, femur ash weight to body weight ratio, or tibial breaking strength'.

So - just a thought - could your friend's bones be porous but otherwise fairly durable?
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Actually, Im very curious how they established that her bones are porous.
Maybe, all they found was a low bone mineral density, which is something VERY different.

Indeed the exposure to a megadosis once a year seems contraproductive to me, as the body will 'be frightened' by this amount, 'seeing it' as hostile, which will do no good for the vitamin D absorption rate.
To me, it seems best to daily consume sufficient vitamin D from fish and egg yolks, and walking outside a lot, for the daylight exposure. (sunlight helps to convert cholesterol into vitamin D)

Maybe, she is low in cholesterol as well.
and did they check her PTH levels? (parathyroid hormone)
Is she a vegetarian?
Cairidh
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Post by Cairidh »

cod liver oil......
Corinne
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Post by Corinne »

Thanks RRM and all of you for your prompt responses.
I've forwarded the link to this thead to my friend and hope she decides to post or join...
TO awnser your questions RRM, I only know she is not a strict vegetarian but only eats meat occasionally and eats a lot of tofu (she's Chinese) and hardly any dairy (a little cheese only).
I don't know how they tested her nor what other tests they ran. Hopefully she'll let me or us know soon!
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Post by Corinne »

Some more elements from my friend:
I actually have holes visible (on the X-ray) on two of my vertebrae discs where there's also a deformation of the cervical vertebre.

The doctor didn't really give me any dietary suggestions for Vitamin D as he
thinks that I have more of a metablism problem. Calcium level is normal.
Seems like she only got an x-ray but not the other test you mentioned RRM.
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Corinne wrote:I only know she is not a strict vegetarian but only eats meat occasionally and eats a lot of tofu (she's Chinese) and hardly any dairy (a little cheese only).
Hmm, not so good.
Tofu is soy, and the phytoestrogens in soy decrease the estrogen level, while estrogen protects your bones against excessive bone turnover.
Due to the lack of dietary cholesterol, she may (or may not) have too little cholesterol at her disposal for vitamin D conversion, and vitamin D protects your bones against too high PTH levels.
Too high PTH levels cause excessive bone turnover.

I strongly recommend her to have both her cholesterol and PTH levels checked, as well as her estrogen levels.
In the meantime she should eat fresh raw egg yolks and fresh raw fish daily, for the cholesterol and vitamin D. She needs protection now!


I actually have holes visible (on the X-ray) on two of my vertebrae discs where there's also a deformation of the cervical vertebre.
The holes and deformation point to a lack of vitamin D or excessive PTH, or both.
Luckily both are reversible. (unlike 'true osteoporosis')
he thinks that I have more of a metablism problem. Calcium level is normal.
Maybe, maybe not.
It doesnt matter what he thinks, he should first do all the tests that may tell him and her what it actually is, and he should test her vitamin D levels after one month of daily egg yolks and fish intake.
Seems like she only got an x-ray but not the other test you mentioned RRM.
Thats ok.
It is very important that she gets her cholesterol, estrogen and PTH levels checked though, and that she ingests sufficient vitamin D and cholesterol.

Is she depressed often?
Does she have regular periods?
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Cairidh wrote:cod liver oil......
May be too concentrated, which may 'frighten' the body into 'a low absorption rate mode'.
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Post by Corinne »

Thanks! I'll have to find out!
Chin-Chin
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My general deficiency (ok, just in vitamin D for now)

Post by Chin-Chin »

Hi Corinne, Hi Oscar, Hi the Wai community,

I'm on the diet for 3 days now and have just managed to register for the forum even though I have previously decided not to join internet forums anymore (see what you make me do, Corinne?)

BTW, I'm also suspending consuming soja products after all this soja scare. Soon, there won't be anything good left on earth to eat or drink.

About my medical conditions:
I've been having shoulder and arm pains for the past 4 years (non-stop). I just recently saw a doctor for an elbow inflammation that prevented me from having any mobility. He had x-rays run for my cervical vertebrae, and found a slight deformation + holes/spaces (lacunes osseuses) in the C2 and C4 discs?

He then ran a blood test to understand why there's a de-mineralization in the bones - turned out that I had a vitamin D defficiency and a surplus of tablet (plaquette) in my blood.

Since Corinne has telephoned me about my blood test and said that it's very important that I send my results to RRM, I'll post it here:

Hématies-4 240 000 /mm3
Hémoglobine - 13.10 g/100ml
Hématocrite - 39%
V.G.M. - 92 mu3
T.G.M.H. - 30.9 pc3
C.C.M.H. - 33.59%

Leucocytes - 6470/mm3
Polynucléaires neutrophiles - 48% or 3106/mm3
éosinophiles - 3% or 194/mm3
basophiles - 0% or 0/mm3
Lymphocytes - 42% or 2717/mm3
Monocytes - 7% or 453/mm3

Plaquettes - 448 000/mms

Vitesse de sedimentation
1st hour: 31mm
2nd hour: 75mm

Calcium - 93mg/l

Phosphatases alcalines: 77 UI/L

Protéine C réactive (CRP): 4mg/l

25 OH Vitamine D (LIA) - 13 ng/ml
-32 nmol/l

Cholestérol total: 1.91 g/l
Technique PAP - 4.93mmol/l

That's about it. I took a one-time vitamin D dose. Supposedly, this is only to be taken once a year.

I'm not sure if I'm more depressed than the normal population as it's pretty difficult to gauge depression when you live in Paris. I'm definitely underproductive and feel unfocused. I was diagnozed with hyperactivity as a kid and then with ADHD in college.

I'm going through physical therapy and osteopathy treatments currently. I don't know if it's psychological, but ever since my battery of test, I feel like my bones are falling apart. So don't tell me it's true!



:oops: Chin-Chin
Chin-Chin
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meat eater

Post by Chin-Chin »

By the way, I've never been a vegetarian. I know Corinne has this idealized vision of gentle Chinese people, but I love lamb, and eat all red meat and poultry except pork products (personal preference).

Overall, I have had a pretty well-balanced cooked diet even though I've always loved sashimi and raw beef. And like I said, I've been a bit heavy on the tofu, but that's only a recent development following Dr. d'Adamo's recommendations :wink:

The only thing I wanted to know was the upper limit on the consumption of raw eggs. Is eating 4 a day a bit excessive? Anybody gets bored with eggs?

Chin-Chin
Corinne
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Post by Corinne »

Wow!
Welcome to the forum ChinChin. You're quicker than I thought!
We will make sure you don't get too involved!
:wink:
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

Hey Chin-Chin, welcome on the forum! :)

I hope RRM can do something with your test results. I don't see any PTH level measurement though, or it has to be one of the 3 mysterious acronyms. :?

Anyway, glad to hear you're giving the diet a go! How are you eating so far?
To answer your question: after the initial build-up, 4 egg yolks is certainly not too much. In your case you might even want to aim for more than that. Some people on the forum eat more than 10 or even 20 yolks per day. :)
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