Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

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dime
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Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by dime »

Ideally this should be 2:1, at least that's what everyone says. However, I for example have it the other way around 1:2, and pretty much everyone else on this diet as it seems. Just search for "calcium phosphorus" on this forum, you'll get a bunch of nutrient lists from the calculator, and in pretty much all it's around 1:2.

Any thoughts on this? At least to me this doesn't sound like a good thing :/
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RRM
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by RRM »

There are a lot of dogmas that are not correct, particularly regarding calcium.
If you want to find out what makes most sense to you, first try to find out what is the rationale behind the 2:1 ratio.
Try to find whether you can make that theory make sense in your own words.
dime
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by dime »

I read a bit more on the subject. This ratio in the body is largely regulated through the urine: up to 900-1000mg/day of phosphorus but only 150mg/day of calcium are expelled with the urine. So everything is fine then.
The theory is based on the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the blood, which is around 2:1. But as long as this is properly regulated by the body, the ratio in the food we eat shouldn't be a big problem.
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by RRM »

dime wrote:The theory is based on the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the blood, which is around 2:1.
But as long as this is properly regulated by the body, the ratio in the food we eat shouldn't be a big problem.
Exactlly, up to the point that its too much, of course (either calcium or phosphorus).
The body is very effective in adjusting (multiple-fold) both the absorption and the excretion rate of minerals and trace elements,
so that the dietary calcium/phosphorus ratio has not that much influence on the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the blood,
unless the intake of one of the minerals is extremely high or low.
Consuming too much phosphorus negatively affects bone health, and then extra calcium doies not help. Huttunen M et al
On this diet Brazil nuts and egg yolk contain the most phosphorus, and fruits the least.
Consuming 10 egg yolks a day, the calcium/phosphorus ratio is almost 1:3.
Consuming fish instead, its closer to 1:2.
The less animal food (and nuts), the higher the calcium/phosphorus ratio.
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PTH and calcium/phosphorus ratio

Post by Kasper »

Is this statement true or false ?

Statement:
Well-absorbed dietary calcium opposes the parathyroid hormone. When dietary calcium (or its cofactors) is deficient, PTH will be released in order to break down bone in order to raises serum calcium levels. This process increases inflammatory messengers.

Conclusion: Low calcium intake during pregnancy is associated with a larger increase of systolic blood pressure and high parathormone levels.
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Re: PTH and calcium

Post by RRM »

Kasper wrote:Is this statement true or false ?
There are a lot of aspects to this statement.
What part of it are you interested in, particularly?
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Re: PTH and calcium

Post by Kasper »

Especially this part:
When dietary calcium (or its cofactors) is deficient, PTH will be released in order to break down bone in order to raises serum calcium levels.

I've been trying to study PTH a little bit.

I think that some people may feel good with high calcium is because it inhibits the PTH increasing effects of phosphorus rich food.
There has been a couple studies done, that show this: http://books.google.nl/books?id=cX36j-w ... at&f=false

Therefore, if you have a diet relatively low in calcium, you may want to consider limiting food with a very low Ca/P ratio.

CALCIUM - PHOSPHORUS RATIO OF FOODS Ca/P ratio mg/1OO g
Bone 36,700/16,400
Dried apricots 67/108
Raisins 62/101
Salmon 188/328
Bananas 8/26
Herring 66/254
Egg yolk 141/569
Pineapple, raw 17/8
Walnuts 99/380
Coconut, dried 26/187
Grapes 16/12
Carrots 37/36
Brazil nuts 186/693
Grapefruit, whole 16/16
Cucumber 25/27
Dates 59/63
Lemon juice, apples 7/10
Watermelon 7/10
Pears 8/11
Apricots, fresh 17/23
Plums 12/18
Orange juice 11/17
Peaches 9/19
Sardines 430/575
Meat average 10/200
Tomatoes 13/27
Liver average 15/540
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Re: PTH and calcium

Post by RRM »

These need to be added, as they are a good indication of the initial ratios:
human milk, transitional 40/18 (2,7:1)
human milk 32/15 (2,1:1)
As humans age, they need less calcium/kg bodyweight for bone calcification,
so that the required ratio goes further down from here (> 1 yr old).
Hence international RDAs for calcium and phosphorus are more or less at the same level.
Kasper wrote:Especially this part:
When dietary calcium (or its cofactors) is deficient, PTH will be released in order to break down bone in order to raises serum calcium levels.
On this diet its quite hard to consume too little calcium.
You need to eat lots of animal food and little fruits.
I think the experiments are done with supplemental phosphorus.
1) natural foods dont contain phosphorus only
2) it takes time for the body to adjust the absorption rates.
I think that some people may feel good with high calcium is because it inhibits the PTH increasing effects of phosphorus rich food.
On this diet, the calcium/phosphorus ratio varies too little to evoke secondary PTH-ism.
Therefore, if you have a diet relatively low in calcium, you may want to consider limiting food with a very low Ca/P ratio.
Before increasing PTH too much, the body will adjust the mineral absorption rates.
If the calcium/phosphorus ratio is low, the body will both increase calcium uptake and decrease phosphorus uptake,
before it will allow net bone degradation.
Just check out the numbers; as this diet is mostly fruits/ juices, you will be fine.
If you consume very little fruits and lots of animal food, submit your version of the diet to the nutrient calculator,
and see if your phosphorus intake is excessive, and whether calcium is below 300 mg.
If thats the case, increase OJ consumption and decrease animal food intake.
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by Kasper »

The body is very effective in adjusting (multiple-fold) both the absorption and the excretion rate of minerals and trace elements,
so that the dietary calcium/phosphorus ratio has no influence on the calcium/phosphorus ratio in the blood,
unless the intake of one of the minerals is extremely high or low.
This may be true for the Ca/P ratio of the blood.
But I think that constantly raising PTH levels to rebalance the blood is very bad idea.
Hence international RDAs for calcium and phosphorus are more or less at the same level.
This makes sense to me, as a 1:1 Ca/P ratio doesn't seem to raise PTH levels.
On this diet, the calcium/phosphorus ratio varies too little to evoke secondary PTH-ism.
And what about acute PTH elevation?
For example if you eat a meal only containing egg yolks and/or meat.
Studies show that acute ingestion of food with high P/Ca ratio elevates PTH.
Maybe people prefer to combine egg yolks with fruit or fish, because of PTH elevation after eating pure egg yolks.
Before increasing PTH too much, the body will adjust the mineral absorption rates.
Again, this is speculation... What do you mean with increasing PTH too much? How do you define a too high PTH elevation ?
If the calcium/phosphorus ratio is low, the body will both increase calcium uptake and decrease phosphorus uptake,
before it will allow net bone degradation.
Which calcium/phosphorus ratio? Of a meal? Of the diet? Of the blood ?
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by RRM »

Kasper wrote: But I think that constantly raising PTH levels to rebalance the blood is very bad idea.
Absolutely, but a moderate Ca/P ratio will not constantly do so.
This diet has a moderate Ca/P ratio.
PTH is a hormone with functions, not a 'bad guy'.
PTH finetunes serum levels of calcium and related minerals.
If a meal is very high in P, and low in Ca, PTH will indeed evoke a little bone resorption to restore the proper balance,
but that is normal biology.
Only if PTH is constantly elevated, you have a problem.
A diet that is relatively high in P will increase urinary P, and fractional calcium absorption.
A low Ca/P ratio evokes urinary P excretion. Ito S et al
Switching from a high protein (1.1 g/kg protein, 1152 mg P) to RDA levels (0.8 g/kg protein, 800 mg P),
mean serum calcium and PTH remained unchanged (but reduced bone resorption and calcium excretion). Ince BA et al
I think that high calcium intake may be very beneficial in a grain based diet to balance high P/Ca ratio of the diet(which raises the PTH level).
The Wai diet is not grain-based.
Also, if phosphorus intake is too high, extra calcium will not help:
"High dietary phosphate intake reduced growth, skeletal material, and structural properties
and decreased bone strength in growing male rats. Adequate calcium could not overcome this.
" Huttunen MM et al
For example if you eat a meal only containing egg yolks and/or meat.
You may overestimate the influence of Ca/P in one meal on bone health.
Its usually about habitually Ca/P.
If habitual Ca/P is low, one should consume less animal food, and more OJ etc.

Habitually low Ca/P (< 0.5) does elevate serum PTH Kemi VE et al
but:
"in young Japanese women, phosphorus intake did not have a significantly negative effect on bone mineral density,
and calcium intake and calcium/phosphorus intake ratio had a small but significant association only in a site-specific manner with BMD.
" Ito S et al
"phosphate additives (both mono- and poly-phosphates) may have more harmful effects on bone than other P sources" Kemi VE et al
When comparing the influence of 1000 mg of P from meat, cheese, whole grains, or a phosphate supplement,
only the phosphate supplement increased serum PTH. Karp HJ
Comparing the influence of 250 mg Ca in combination with 750, 1250 or 2000 mg P,
P has a dose-dependent effect on serum PTH, and only the 2000 mg dose caused a decrease in serum Ca.Kemi VE et al
What do you mean with increasing PTH too much? How do you define a too high PTH elevation ?
HPTH that remains significant. Not just a short elevation of PTH in response to a meal.
If the calcium/phosphorus ratio is low, the body will both increase calcium uptake and decrease phosphorus uptake,
before it will allow net bone degradation.
Which calcium/phosphorus ratio? Of a meal? Of the diet? Of the blood ?
Diet.
The body will also adjust the excretion rates.
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by Kasper »

PTH is a hormone with functions, not a 'bad guy'. PTH finetunes serum levels of calcium and related minerals.
PTH does very important things, but with unhealthy side effects (inflammation/mast cell degranulation) etc.
This diet has a moderate Ca/P ratio.
This diet has no fixed Ca/P ratio, so this statement doesn't mean anything.
Maybe you wanted to say that "your" version of this diet has a moderate Ca/P ratio.
Please be specific.
You may overestimate the influence of Ca/P in one meal on bone health.
The side effects of PTH elevation effects more then only bone health.
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by RRM »

Kasper wrote:
PTH is a hormone with functions, not a 'bad guy'. PTH finetunes serum levels of calcium and related minerals.
PTH does very important things, but with unwanted side effects (inflammation/mast cell degranulation) etc.
Which still doesnt make it a 'bad guy', unless the bad effects are too big.
Its influences are counteracted/balanced by other hormones and factors.
(even by the entry signal of glucose Brown AJ et al)
Everyone's blood always contains varying levels of PTH.
Lets not get paranoia over PTH here.
This diet has a moderate Ca/P ratio.
This diet has no fixed Ca/P ratio, so this statement doesn't mean anything.
We recommend consuming lots of fruits and little animal food.
So, yes, it DOES mean something.
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by Kasper »

Also, if phosphorus intake is too high, extra calcium will not help.
Extra calcium will help against elevation of PTH.
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by RRM »

Kasper wrote:
Also, if phosphorus intake is too high, extra calcium will not help. Huttunen MM et al
Extra calcium will help against elevation of PTH.
But what is the point of the extra calcium if it doesnt help you to get healthy bones?
Instead of adding extra calcium, one should lower phosphorus intake, as that is the root cause.
Taking extra calcium will only address the elevated PTH issue, which is a symptom of elevated P here.
So that if you address that symptom by adding extra calcium,
you are only addressing one symptom, and not the root cause,
and not the rest of the problems that too high phosphate causes.
There is only one measure that properly addresses too high P, and that is lowering P.
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Re: Calcium-Phosphorus ratio

Post by Kasper »

There is only one measure that properly addresses too high P, and that is lowering P.
I absolutely agree, but that is focusing on the ideal situation.
But even when Ca/P ratio is good on daily basis, the effects of a single meal on PTH is something interesting.
Combining egg yolks with fruit may therefore be more optimal then eating egg yolks alone.
Not only because of calcium in orange juice, but also (like you pointed out), the sugar in orange juice may help against PTH elevation.
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