Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

About specific vitamines, minerals or fiber, for example
fred
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Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

Post by fred »

dime wrote:Recent research confirming that cholesterol itself is not bad, but oxidized cholesterol is: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 151254.htm
(article summary)
Also fascinating that it's done by a 98 years old scientist!
The article doesn't explain why dietary cholesterol is good "for your heart" as announced in the head of the article :

"A 98-year-old researcher argues that, contrary to decades of clinical assumptions and advice to patients, dietary cholesterol is good for your heart -- unless that cholesterol is unnaturally oxidized (by frying foods in reused oil, eating lots of polyunsaturated fats, or smoking)."
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Re: Dietary cholesterol essential?

Post by RRM »

The membrane of each cell of your body contains cholesterol, regulating membrane fluidity.
Within each cell, cholesterol is also essential for transport, signalling and nerve conduction.
This includes the membranes of the cells that compose your heart.
Without the cholesterol, there is no healthy heart.
So, yes, dietary cholesterol is good for your heart, unless oxidized.
fred
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Re: Dietary cholesterol essential?

Post by fred »

I understand that cholesterol is essential for life. Dietary cholesterol is not essential because the liver manufactures it according to our need. We can live well without eating it, and any excess cholesterol must be excreted like any other substances. So why focus on high cholesterol food like egg yolk, when we naturally eat some when we are not vegetarian ?
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Re: Dietary cholesterol essential?

Post by fred »

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 002-0046-y :

"Dietary cholesterol has been known as a dominant factor in the genesis of atherosclerosis since 1908. The evidence for the role of dietary cholesterol is based upon animal experiments, the chemistry of atherosclerotic plaques, worldwide epidemiology, and human feeding studies. All lines of evidence converge to indicate that dietary cholesterol is a major factor in promoting the growth of the atherosclerotic plaque by increasing its cholesterol content. Confusion about dietary cholesterol has arisen because amounts above a certain quantity (the ceiling) do not elevate plasma cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. The therapeutic threshold for dietary cholesterol is below 100 mg/d."
"Whatever the theory of development of atherosclerosis is, it must be reconciled with the presence of huge amounts of cholesterol in the plaque, a point that all investigators agree upon."

The body seems to be limited regarding removing excess dietary cholesterol. Can someone prove that raw cholesterol (non oxidized) is totally safe and won't clog my arteries ?
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Re: Articles on oxidized (bad) cholesterol

Post by overkees »

More nutrients is not always better. So since cholesterol is also a nutrient, the same applies here. I think it is very unnatural to eat large quantities of egg yolks. When I first started the wai diet I could easily eat up to 10 yolks a day. After a while that really nauseated me, and then I coudln't eat more than about 5-7. Now I can't eat more than 3 and on most days they are not appealing at all to me.

I think it is this you must listen too: Just do what you feel and don't eat more just because you 'need' the nutrients.
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Re: Articles on oxidized (bad) cholesterol

Post by RRM »

fred wrote:Dietary cholesterol is not essential because the liver manufactures it according to our need.
In that line of reasoning, you might also argue that all vitamin B3, B5, biotin, K and D that we need is produced in our body.
But, as you know, its not that simple.
Thats because our body is about optimal efficiency; the body only has the capacity to produce that what we 'normally' might lack.
Any overcapacity (diet + production vs requirements) is eliminated by evolution.
Humans have adapted the production of nutrients in conjunction with dietary availability; Humans have evolved in accordance with the food available.
Some vitamins are partially produced by the body, whereas others not at all.
Unlike most animals, humans totally lost the capacity to produce vitamin C because vitamin C was abundantly present in our natural diet.
Similarly, humans lose the capacity to produce EPA and DHA when generations are accustomed to eating lots of fish on a daily basis.
This allows for (individual / occasional / relative) deficiencies, depending on multiple factors. (eg sunlight exposure > vitamin D)
So, yes, these vitamins ARE essential (dietary).
Technically, they may not be 'essential', as also produced by the body, but we can lack them when our diet is inadequate.
So, if the body produces it, that does not mean its not essential.

Vegetarians on average have lower cholesterol levels.Fu CH et al Fu CH et al
A diet rich in cholesterol improves cognitive functions. Dufour F et al
In elderly people lower (both LDL and HDL) cholesterol levels are associated with increased infection rates.Weverling-Rijnsburger AW et al
In people older than 85 years, high total cholesterol concentrations are associated with longevity owing to lower mortality from cancer and infection.Weverling-Rijnsburger AW et al
Total cholesterol is positively associated with sociability.Hillbrand M et al
Low cholesterol is (through serotonin) associated with aggression / violent behaviour Golomb BA et al Spitz RT et al Zhang J et al Chakrabarti N et al Golomb BA et al and suicidality. Papassotiropoulos A et al Kunugi H et al Alvarez JC et al Lee HJ et al Olié E et al Atmaca M et al

Cholesterol is therefore an essential nutrient, which is also reflected by its presence in human breast milk: 25 - 29 mg / 100 g.
This is equivalent to 1086 mg cholesterol in a 3000 kcal diet, corresponding to 5 egg yolks daily.
overkees wrote:More nutrients is not always better. ... Just do what you feel and don't eat more just because you 'need' the nutrients.
I agree.
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Re: Dietary cholesterol essential?

Post by overkees »

Very convincing, I think cholesterol really deserves a waiwiki page for all the misconceptions about it. Also please look at the effects sugar has on cholesterol production.
fred
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Re: Dietary cholesterol essential?

Post by fred »

Do we have evidence that our ancestors had plenty of dietary cholesterol, and that in consequence our ability to synthesis cholesterol is lowered for modern human?

The fact is that high cholesterol is strongly linked to heart disease. And heart disease is the number one killer. So that you are much more likely to die from heart disease than to suicide or infection. Thus, your chance to die is far lower with low cholesterol than with higher cholesterol.
Vegetarian diets are associated with healthy mood : http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/26
Improvements in hostility and depression in relation to dietary change and cholesterol lowering. The Family Heart Study. : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1416556
"Many confounding factors, e.g. poor health, depression and loss of appetite may play a role in the apparent relationship between serum cholesterol levels and suicide." : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11191718
No evidence for an association between serum cholesterol and the course of depression and suicidality. : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14675744
Restriction of meat, fish, and poultry in omnivores improves mood: A pilot randomized controlled trial : http://www.nutritionj.com/content/11/1/9
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Re: Dietary cholesterol essential?

Post by RRM »

Good cholesterol is not the issue; as our body can perfectly deal with that.
Associations dont cut it in science. You need to look at what exactly causes arterial plaque.
As THAT is what causes heart diseases.

"A review of relevant literature on biological activities of oxysterols and cholesterol clearly demonstrate manifold biological activities, often detrimental, for oxysterols compared with little or no such activity of a deleterious nature for cholesterol itself. Cholesterol is perhaps the single most important compound in animal tissue and, as such, it is difficult to imagine it as a toxin or hazard." Guardiola F et al
The fact is that high cholesterol is strongly linked to heart disease. And heart disease is the number one killer.
Associations are not necessarily causal.
Basing your hypothesis on mere associations is flawed science.
Good science is to find causal relationships instead of mere associations.
A review of 61 studies (900,000 subjects in total) showed that total (good+bad) cholesterol is associated with ischaemic heart disease mortaility,
but not with stroke mortality. Prospective Studies Collaboration
(the so called "cholesterol and stroke paradox")
fred wrote:No evidence for an association between serum cholesterol and the course of depression and suicidality. : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14675744
Of course, the intake of oxysterols on cholesterol, mood and health has adverse effects. (review: "depression has a clear bidirectional relationship with vascular diseases" Thomas AJ et al, probably through hyperhomocysteinemia Hermann W et al)
Thats not the issue.
The issue is whether LOW cholesterol is associated with depression and suicide. (excluding high-cholesterol patients)
The number of studies showing an association between LOW cholesterol and depression and suicidaility is far larger than the studies showing inconsistent results.
Review: "A substantial body of evidence shows an association between an increased risk of suicide and naturally low or therapeutically lowered serum cholesterol" Zang J et al
You must have noticed this when searching for studies with inconsistent results.
Shall we do a contest who can find the most studies to support our case?
fred wrote:Improvements in hostility and depression in relation to dietary change and cholesterol lowering. The Family Heart Study. : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1416556 [/url]
"a low-fat, high complex-carbohydrate diet ... greater improvements in depression ... and aggressive hostility ... compared with those who ate a high-fat "American diet."
This is not a study about the effects of LOW cholesterol on suicide / agression.
Again, its not about high (comes with high oxysterols) vs low, or lowering high levels, but about the effects of low vs normal cholesterol.
fred wrote:Vegetarian diets are associated with healthy mood : http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/26
I dont know whether reporting of "negative emotions" by Seventh Day Adventists is very reliable as a scientific tool...
fred wrote:heart disease is the number one killer. ... your chance to die is far lower with low cholesterol than with higher cholesterol.
Intake of oxysterols is associated with elevated cholesterol, and of course the intake of oxysterols is a severe health risk.
You cannot blame that on good cholesterol.
The issue in this thread is whether dietary good cholesterol is essential (and "good for the heart").
A review of 8 studies assessing the relationship between cholesterol levels and outcome in patients with established chronic heart failure, showed that lower serum cholesterol was consistently associated with increased mortality. van der Harst P et al Full Free Text
So, despite lowering the bad oxysterols, lower total cholesterol is bad for patients with chronic heart failure (the most vulnerable patients).
In statistics about the protective effects of lowering total cholesterol, these patients are systematically excluded....

"in the retrieved 47 placebo-controlled clinical trials (> 100,000 patients), chronic heart failure patients had been systematically excluded" van der Harst P et al
fred
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Re: Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

Post by fred »

The fact that a food is raw like egg yolk does not make it safe to eat everyday. I ate a high raw cholesterol/fat diet during one year and ended up with dyslipidemia and arrhythmia. Where are the evidences that high cholesterol food when raw don’t increase dangerously blood cholesterol level when eaten on a daily basis? (Raw dietary cholesterol is not unhealthy by itself)
As for the studies showing an association between low cholesterol and depression/suicidality, what is the cause of depression/suicidality : low cholesterol or empty calorie food like sugar or other refined high carb food that causes hypoglycemia which is a well known cause of depression and violent behavior ? As you said, association is not causation. And what about the vegetarians who have low cholesterol and healthy mood ? they generally don’t eat much empty calorie food.
Artificially lowering blood cholesterol with drugs like statins without modifying the cause of the chronic heart failures is of course very dangerous as showed by these 8 studies.
Again, the few studies you mentioned are nothing compared to the overwhelming evidences built during many decades by generations of scientists that high cholesterol/fat food promote heart disease.
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Re: Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

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fred wrote: I ate a high raw cholesterol/fat diet during one year and ended up with dyslipidemia and arrhythmia.
You have reported a number of health issues on this board.
Does that make good cholesterol dangerous?
Or does that indicate that you may be a very vulnerable person, who may have a number of health issues?
Where are the evidences that high cholesterol food when raw don’t increase dangerously blood cholesterol level when eaten on a daily basis?
Where are the studies that they do?
If only they would study the effects of a raw food diet...
As for the studies showing an association between low cholesterol and depression/suicidality, what is the cause of depression/suicidality
As studies show, the most likely link is the link between cholesterol and serotonin, which highly affects mood and agression.
Major depressive disorder is associated with impaired serotoninergic neurotransmission.
Review: "A rich body of research has identified deficits in serotonin function as a risk factors for suicide in depressive disorder. Moreover, there is now considerable evidence that measures of serum cholesterol concentrations may provide a clinically useful reflection of this mechanism" Corvell WH
Low cholesterol may effect serotonergic neuronal activity and some types of 5-HT receptors, then may be related to violent behavior during sleep. Agargun MY et al
Cholesterol may affect neurotransmission in the CNS. Previous work has identified abnormalities in serum cholesterol levels in patients with mood and anxiety disorders as well as in suicidal patients. Papakostas GI et al
possible role of serotonin in the brain in the relationship of suicidal behavior or ideation with low cholesterol concentration in panic disorder. Ozer OA et al
In males, low cholesterol is linked to low serotonergic activity. (may contribute to higher incidence of violent behavior in males) Markianos M et al
Platelet serotonin and serum cholesterol concentrations were significantly lower in suicidal than in non-suicidal patients Marcinko D et al
Excess cholesterol may adversely affect the function of membrane-bound serotonergic structures Papakostas GI et al

In metabolic syndrome, HDL cholesterol is decreased. Metabolic syndrome is associated with reduced central serotonergic responsivity. Muldoon MF et al
In psychotic mania the relationship may be reverse: "Manic patients with psychotic features had increased platelet serotonin concentrations and decreased levels of cholesterol" Saqud M et al
Patients with anxiety disorders and obsessive-compulsive disorder had elevated cholesterol levels. Peter H et al
fred wrote:And what about the vegetarians who have low cholesterol and healthy mood ?
You mean the Seventh Day Adventists having to report about "negative emotions"?
Do you really think that is a reliable scientific tool?
the few studies you mentioned are nothing compared to the overwhelming evidences built during many decades by generations of scientists that high cholesterol/fat food promote heart disease.
If you list all oxysterols as well as good cholesterol as 'cholesterol', then they are right. (regarding ischemic heart disease mortaility, but not regarding stroke mortality, see Prospective Studies Collaboration)
But science has come a long way since that.
Science has discovered that the molecule cholesterol differs from oxysterols.
Science has discovered that (good) cholesterol readily oxidizes due to heat (cooking temp).
Science has discovered that its actually those oxysterols that are hazardous.
Listing oxysterols as 'cholesterol' is being oblivious to all those discoveries.
If you are really interested in the cause of coronary diseases, you need to make distinctions,
and find real causative relationships instead of mere associations.

Please show me just one study that shows a relationship between consuming food high in good (unaltered / unoxidized) cholesterol and heart disease.
Just one....
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Re: Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

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In an Austrian study, 67413 men and 82237 women were examined.
In men, and in women over 50, "low cholesterol was significantly associated with all-cause mortality, showing significant associations with death through cancer, liver diseases, and mental diseases".
Ulmer H et al
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Re: Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

Post by bobnik »

I don't diet in any way, I eat normally. I do a lot of sports and some weight lifting. I love to eat eggs as eggs are very nutritional. I've been eating about 3-5 eggs for 2 years now. Last time I checked my cholesterol levels were lower than expected (in a good way). If expected cholesterol levels are somewhere in between 4 and 5 mmol/l, my result was 3,3mmol/l (total cholesterol). I do eat animal meat and I don't cut on my food anywhere. I burn all extra calories by doing sports.
I think our body can regulate just about everything, as long as the intake of specific food is within normal ranges.
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Re: Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

Post by RRM »

Interesting, thank you.
bobnik wrote:I think our body can regulate just about everything, as long as the intake of specific food is within normal ranges.
Hmm, then people eating 'normal, balanced diets' would not develop 'diet-related' diseases,
which is not true, however.
To what extend we can regulate various nutrients (cholesterol, calcium etc) is very much individually different,
so that the susceptibility to such a 'diet-related' disease is individually very different.
The same is true for our capacity to regulate non-nutrient dietary components, such as cancerous HCA (also as in cigarette smoke);
some people may smoke 2 packs of cigs daily for 60 years without adverse health effects,
and yet the average effects are clearly adverse.
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Re: Dietary (good) cholesterol essential?

Post by bobnik »

I didn't say that by proper diet we will never get ill.
Disease such as diabetes is has (most often) nothing to do with your diet. You can eat tons of sugar for example and you will never develop diabetes. It's in your genes whether you're prone to get diabetes, or not.
My point was that one should eat everything and not cut food off (which is nonsense), because if you're active and if you burn that calories you'll be fine.
As far as cholesterol goes - it's best to eat cholesterol rich food in moderation though.
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