AGEs / ALEs
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Re: AGEs / ALEs
Ok, so fructose intake from veggies and fruits and subsequent endogenous formation of AGEs is associated with better health...
Of course, this relationship is not causal, its purely statistical.
So, why the association?
Because fruits do not contain any AGEs/ALEs that only form at higher temperatures.
Cooked vegetables will contain a little AGEs/ALEs only formed at higher (than physiological) temperatures, but relatively little in comparision to other cooked foods.
And since the effects of high temp-AGEs/ALEs on health are very strong, and the effects of AGEs/ALEs formed at physiological temp are small,
the latter totally outweigh the former.
Inspired by JeffC:
if the police only focusses on giving parking tickets (endogenously formed AGEs/ALEs), they forget about all the murderers, and rapists (high-temp AGEs/ALEs).
Sure, if you forget to pay enough money for parking, you represent people who do not always obey the law (AGEs/ALEs),
but your personal discomfort with some of them (fructose, or other 'misdemeanours', such as glucose, fatty acids, amino acids) should not cloud your view on how to best address crime. (health)
Of course, this relationship is not causal, its purely statistical.
So, why the association?
Because fruits do not contain any AGEs/ALEs that only form at higher temperatures.
Cooked vegetables will contain a little AGEs/ALEs only formed at higher (than physiological) temperatures, but relatively little in comparision to other cooked foods.
And since the effects of high temp-AGEs/ALEs on health are very strong, and the effects of AGEs/ALEs formed at physiological temp are small,
the latter totally outweigh the former.
Inspired by JeffC:
if the police only focusses on giving parking tickets (endogenously formed AGEs/ALEs), they forget about all the murderers, and rapists (high-temp AGEs/ALEs).
Sure, if you forget to pay enough money for parking, you represent people who do not always obey the law (AGEs/ALEs),
but your personal discomfort with some of them (fructose, or other 'misdemeanours', such as glucose, fatty acids, amino acids) should not cloud your view on how to best address crime. (health)
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Similar to the positive statistical association between AGEs/ALEs that may be formed endogenously and better health, there is no statistical association between acrylamide intake and cancer. Again, this is due to the masking effect of more hazardous and numerous other AGEs/ALEs.
That is because acrylamide is mainly formed in veggies and grains exposed to high heat. These foods will yield relatively few AGEs/ALEs in comparison to animal foods exposed to high temperatures.
That is because acrylamide is mainly formed in veggies and grains exposed to high heat. These foods will yield relatively few AGEs/ALEs in comparison to animal foods exposed to high temperatures.
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Fine, maybe CML is like a parking ticket, not enough to put someone in jail just because they forgot to insert a few coins into the parking machine.
But what about fructose? is it a dangerous thief? Should the thief be put in jail (away from other people).
If JeffC was the police he will put fructose in jail because of animal studies.
But what about fructose? is it a dangerous thief? Should the thief be put in jail (away from other people).
If JeffC was the police he will put fructose in jail because of animal studies.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: AGEs / ALEs
If that would be the case, fructose intake (veggies, fruit) would not be positively associated with better health (less crime).Aytundra wrote:But what about fructose? is it a dangerous thief?
Statistically, fructose intake is associated with lower crime rates.
Obviously, the potential harmful effects of fructose are usually not powerful enough, greatly outweighed by other factors (eg exogenous AGEs/ALEs).
JeffC is biased because he probably has issues with fructose absorption. Its normal to focus your anger on someone/something that hurts you. Its a normal human response. But such a response may not be entirely rational.Aytundra wrote:If JeffC was the police he will put fructose in jail because of animal studies.
When the dust has settled, fructose is still a nutrient. Fructose is phosphorylated in the liver and very efficient for liver glycogen replenishment. We use that spare sugar in the liver (glycogen) for replensihing blood-glucose levels in between meals. So, fructose stabilizes our blood sugar level. Animal studies have shown that all nutrients are potentially harmful, and even breathing has harmful effects. All nutrients need to be inbalance. Too much iron or zinc increases oxidative damage in our body, for example. Too much of any vitamin, mineral or trace element is harmful. And even too much protein increases the burden of ammonium in our body, and too much omega-3 fats increases lipoxidation. So, of course we also need to balance our fructose intake, as with any other nutrient. Animal studies show that we should not consume fructose sirup.
The bulk of our fructose intake is best consumed as sucrose, which allows for going through the sucrase related transport system. (embedded in the membrane of the small intestine) This allows for glucose-dependent cotransportation of fructose. Free fructose (5 to 50 gram) may be absorbed by the GLUT5 and GLUT2 transport proteins, and that capacity is limited, Though when we regularly consume a lot of free fructose, particularly the capacity of GLUT5 is upregulated. It may be that in JeffC, GLUT5 capacity cannot be adequately upregulated. Or that in JeffC sucrose (more so than in others) inhibits the uptake of free fructose through the sucrase-related transport system.
If we consume more fructose than required for liver glycogen synthesis (about 400 kcal), and it is not used for muscle activity, and this extra fructose is also not used for triglyceride production (bodyfat), then it may be available for AGEs formation.
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Very interesting article on potatoes in the other post, and also the very good response.
I like the fact that you say too many minerals and dangerous, too many vitamins is dangerous, even breathing is dangerous ....
It leads me to think that eventually we just make good choices and of course avoid anything that is harmful. That the intermittent fasting and the role of autophagy to be truly healthy. Too much of anything is dangerous, so do intermittent fasting each day goes to eat only at night (juice and fish) it is not really the best thing to do ? I think so
We have nothing day in the body is at rest and at night it was the easy to digest juice and fish ... what more could you want... ??
I like the fact that you say too many minerals and dangerous, too many vitamins is dangerous, even breathing is dangerous ....
It leads me to think that eventually we just make good choices and of course avoid anything that is harmful. That the intermittent fasting and the role of autophagy to be truly healthy. Too much of anything is dangerous, so do intermittent fasting each day goes to eat only at night (juice and fish) it is not really the best thing to do ? I think so
We have nothing day in the body is at rest and at night it was the easy to digest juice and fish ... what more could you want... ??
Fructose
Yes, more thieves in a city might lower crime rates temporarily, as most criminals in this imaginary city are too busy plotting a heist.RRM wrote:If that would be the case, fructose intake (veggies, fruit) would not be positively associated with better health (less crime).Aytundra wrote:But what about fructose? is it a dangerous thief?
Statistically, fructose intake is associated with lower crime rates.
Obviously, the potential harmful effects of fructose are usually not powerful enough, greatly outweighed by other factors (eg exogenous AGEs/ALEs).
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Ahaha, I know what study we need to look for:
An animal study with:
--- high fructose + high fat,
vs high fructose + medium fat,
vs high fructose + low fat,
and their interaction on endogenous AGEs/ALEs, liver, bones...etc.
An animal study with:
--- high fructose + high fat,
vs high fructose + medium fat,
vs high fructose + low fat,
and their interaction on endogenous AGEs/ALEs, liver, bones...etc.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Temporarily?Aytundra wrote:Yes, more thieves in a city might lower crime rates temporarily, as most criminals in this imaginary city are too busy plotting a heist.RRM wrote:If that would be the case, fructose intake (veggies, fruit) would not be positively associated with better health (less crime).Aytundra wrote:But what about fructose? is it a dangerous thief?
Statistically, fructose intake is associated with lower crime rates.
Obviously, the potential harmful effects of fructose are usually not powerful enough, greatly outweighed by other factors (eg exogenous AGEs/ALEs).
There is no"temporarily" in these population studies.
Fructose consumption from veggies and fruits is associated with better health regarding all cause mortaility, cancer of various organs, asthma etc.
I did not find any population study that shows a positive association between fructose consumption (veggies, fruits) and a type of disease / disorder / affliction.
In other words: so far, fructose consumption from fruits/veggies is not associated with any crime at all.
Fructose consumption (from fruits/veggies) is associated with lower levels of murder, rape, fraud, car theft, pickpockets etc., etc.
Which endogenous AGEs/ALEs?Aytundra wrote:and their interaction on endogenous AGEs/ALEs, liver, bones...etc.
The hundreds that are formed endogenously (and exogenously) ?
The thousands that may be formed exogenously and end up inside our body?
We may compare many options. That is not the issue. The issue in this thread is still the same:Aytundra wrote:Ahaha, I know what study we need to look for
What do you measure?
The level of which AGEs/ALEs need to be measured?
I say: ALL AGEs/ALEs need to be measured.
If you want to find out about the crime levels in your city, all crime needs to be registered.
If you only registrate murders, you will never know the level of rape.
If you only registrate car theft, you will never know about fraud.
There are thousands of AGEs/ALEs.
So, what do we need?
We need truckloads of studies finding out about all those thousands of AGEs/ALEs present in our body.
Once we know, then we can start experimenting with the effects of different diets.
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Oopsies, RRM I don't think you want to write that.RRM wrote:So, what do we need?
We need truckloads of studies finding out about all those thousands of AGEs/ALEs present in our body.
Once we know, then we can start experimenting with the effects of different diets.
You are treading on thin ice with that.
We can't say anything about AGEs/ALEs?...until we know everything?... and then experiment with the effects of different diets?
.....{So now aytundra thinks, me cannot try this diet without knowing everything...?}
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: AGEs / ALEs
I think we should remove veggies from the equation (as they are not wai), and establish that it is fruits that are associated with these parameters. Although I guess it might be hard, probably most studies lump them together.RRM wrote: Fructose consumption from veggies and fruits is associated with better health regarding all cause mortaility, cancer of various organs, asthma etc.
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Yes, it is so unWai to be agreeing with veggies.dime wrote:I think we should remove veggies from the equation (as they are not wai), and establish that it is fruits that are associated with these parameters. Although I guess it might be hard, probably most studies lump them together.RRM wrote: Fructose consumption from veggies and fruits is associated with better health regarding all cause mortaility, cancer of various organs, asthma etc.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: AGEs / ALEs
That veggies are associated with better health, doesn't imply imply that they are optimal ...
What I don't understand is that vegetable and fruits consumption is associated with higher fructose intake. People that I know that are not eating fruits or vegetables, do often eat a lot of sugar. I mean those people eat more fast food, eat a lot of candy/mars/milkshakes/coke etc.
While those people that eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, drink less of those sugar rich fast food, and because they are much more health conscious they get there carbs much more from whole bread, rice etc. instead of sugary snacks, which are low in fructose.
What I don't understand is that vegetable and fruits consumption is associated with higher fructose intake. People that I know that are not eating fruits or vegetables, do often eat a lot of sugar. I mean those people eat more fast food, eat a lot of candy/mars/milkshakes/coke etc.
While those people that eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, drink less of those sugar rich fast food, and because they are much more health conscious they get there carbs much more from whole bread, rice etc. instead of sugary snacks, which are low in fructose.
Re: AGEs / ALEs
But they are plotting a heist.RRM wrote:If that would be the case, fructose intake (veggies, fruit) would not be positively associated with better health (less crime).Aytundra wrote:But what about fructose? is it a dangerous thief?
Statistically, fructose intake is associated with lower crime rates.
Obviously, the potential harmful effects of fructose are usually not powerful enough, greatly outweighed by other factors (eg exogenous AGEs/ALEs).Temporarily?Aytundra wrote:Yes, more thieves in a city might lower crime rates temporarily, as most criminals in this imaginary city are too busy plotting a heist.
There is no"temporarily" in these population studies.
Fructose consumption from veggies and fruits is associated with better health regarding all cause mortaility, cancer of various organs, asthma etc.
I did not find any population study that shows a positive association between fructose consumption (veggies, fruits) and a type of disease / disorder / affliction.
In other words: so far, fructose consumption from fruits/veggies is not associated with any crime at all.
Fructose consumption (from fruits/veggies) is associated with lower levels of murder, rape, fraud, car theft, pickpockets etc., etc.
Temporarily accumulating in a city (liver), they make good script writers writing "action movies" (fats).
Once the city cannot house that many script writers, because the country is oversaturated with new movies as well as other entertainment like electronic games (so much fats for the body that also has other entertainment like glucose), these excess bored writers, now potential thieves, no longer writers and a bit homeless becomes free to wander around the country.
As you have pointed out, wandering fructose no longer writing movies may be a potential thief, "then it may be available for AGEs formation.".RRM wrote:If we consume more fructose than required for liver glycogen synthesis (about 400 kcal), and it is not used for muscle activity, and this extra fructose is also not used for triglyceride production (bodyfat), then it may be available for AGEs formation.
Fructose at this point is still innocent, it may remain just floating freely in a country waiting to go back to the liver to be hired as a script writer.
I have not condemned fructose as bad yet, it remains innocent even if the liver has lots of fat.
And I guess we don't have much to fear from a fatty liver because, wikipedia said hepatic steatosis is a reversible condition:
What we do have to be concerned about with free floating fructose is that there are not tools for the thief, such as free floating amino acids (or eating too much protein) while we harbour "heist plotting" writers.Wikipedia wrote:Fatty liver, also known as fatty liver disease (FLD), is a reversible condition wherein large vacuoles of triglyceride fat accumulate in liver cells via the process of steatosis (i.e., abnormal retention of lipids within a cell).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_liver
One way is autophagy, starving the country of entertainment for a while so that they don't get bored with a continuous stream of entertainment and maybe choose to watch more movies (use up fats in liver).
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
Re: AGEs / ALEs
Ha ha.Aytundra wrote:We can't say anything about AGEs/ALEs?...until we know everything?... and then experiment with the effects of different diets?RRM wrote:So, what do we need?
We need truckloads of studies finding out about all those thousands of AGEs/ALEs present in our body.
Once we know, then we can start experimenting with the effects of different diets.
.....{So now aytundra thinks, me cannot try this diet without knowing everything...?}
I obvioulsy was not clear.
The experimenting was a reference to scientific experiments about the effects of different diets on endogenous levels of AGEs/ALEs.
Only once we know all AGEs/ALEs, we can truly say something about the effects of different diets on all AGEs/ALEs.
It was in response to appointing CML as a marker for all AGEs/ALEs.
That depends on what it is that they replace.Kasper wrote:What I don't understand is that vegetable and fruits consumption is associated with higher fructose intake. People that I know that are not eating fruits or vegetables, do often eat a lot of sugar. I mean those people eat more fast food, eat a lot of candy/mars/milkshakes/coke etc.
At least partially, fruits and veggies replace foods from animal origin, which equates to more fructose and less protein and less fat.
I don't know whether that actually makes a big difference in comparison to the replacement of animal foods by fruits and veggies.While those people that eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, drink less of those sugar rich fast food, and because they are much more health conscious they get there carbs much more from whole bread, rice etc. instead of sugary snacks,
Vegetarians also drink soft drinks etc.
They may seem more health-conscious because they are vegetarians, but many vegetarians solely dont eat animal food because they are opposed to the idea of eating dead animals, or similar.
Fructose temporarily accumulated as glycogen in the liver will only become available (free to wander) as glucose (not fructose).Aytundra wrote:But they are plotting a heist.RRM wrote:.. fructose consumption from fruits/veggies is not associated with any crime at all.
Fructose consumption (from fruits/veggies) is associated with lower levels of murder, rape, fraud, car theft, pickpockets etc., etc.
Temporarily accumulating in a city (liver) .... becomes free to wander around the country.
Re: AGEs / ALEs
"will" What if fructose enters liver but fails to become glucogen?Aytundra wrote:But they are plotting a heist.RRM wrote:.. fructose consumption from fruits/veggies is not associated with any crime at all.
Fructose consumption (from fruits/veggies) is associated with lower levels of murder, rape, fraud, car theft, pickpockets etc., etc.
Temporarily accumulating in a city (liver) .... becomes free to wander around the country.RRM wrote:Fructose temporarily accumulated as glycogen in the liver will only become available (free to wander) as glucose (not fructose).
but I don't get it, you said:
that's what I based my heist metaphor on.RRM wrote:If we consume more fructose than required for liver glycogen synthesis (about 400 kcal), and it is not used for muscle activity, and this extra fructose is also not used for triglyceride production (bodyfat), then it may be available for AGEs formation.
"it" Is "it" a fructose or a glucose?
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!