Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

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Aytundra
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Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby Aytundra » Sat 22 Apr 2017 16:59

Is Serotonin good or bad?

Wai Says:
http://www.waiworld.com/waisays/dis-depression.html
Does Wai Says follow the classical texts' perspective of serotonin?

vs.

Peat Forum:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/tags/serotonin/
There is a prevailing new theme running there, that serotonin is like an endotoxin or like an estrogen or like something that they don't like and that the prevailing classical theories that serotonin is a good thing, is now a bad thing in the brain in Peatearians view.
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby Kasper » Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12

I think serotonin roles in gut irritation and diarrhea is well known. Here are some sources.

http://www.fasebj.org/content/26/1_Supplement/1108.4 :
In conclusion, our results indicate that abnormally increased serotonin acts as a pro-inflammatory and pro-angiogenic factor during intestinal inflammation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin:
In addition to animals, serotonin is found in fungi and plants.[14] Serotonin's presence in insect venoms and plant spines serves to cause pain, which is a side-effect of serotonin injection.[citation needed] Serotonin is produced by pathogenic amoebae,[citation needed] and its effect on the gut[specify] causes diarrhea.[citation needed] Its widespread presence in many seeds and fruits may serve to stimulate the digestive tract into expelling the seeds.[citation needed]

...

If irritants are present in the food, the enterochromaffin cells release more serotonin to make the gut move faster, i.e., to cause diarrhea, so the gut is emptied of the noxious substance. If serotonin is released in the blood faster than the platelets can absorb it, the level of free serotonin in the blood is increased. This activates 5-HT3 receptors in the chemoreceptor trigger zone that stimulate vomiting.[40] The enterochromaffin cells not only react to bad food but are also very sensitive to irradiation and cancer chemotherapy. Drugs that block 5HT3 are very effective in controlling the nausea and vomiting produced by cancer treatment, and are considered the gold standard for this purpose.[41]


Have you ever seen someone happy when they are nausea? I think that either the role of serotonin in the brain and in the gut is very different or that serotonin is the hormone that makes you feel like misery.

Blocking serotonin seems to be helpful for autism:
http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2015/ ... 0page.html

Serotonin seems to be involved in the formation of traumatic memories under stress:
https://elifesciences.org/content/3/e03896v1

The data thus far obtained indicate the blockade of 5-HT2 and 5-HT3 receptors with mirtazapine as an effective and promising method in fibromyalgia symptoms:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15631355
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby RRM » Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:35

Besides that there is endogenous serotonin, and dietary serotonin, you cannot say serotonin is good or bad, in as much that you cannot say that testosterone is good or bad. In a man with high testosterone, it may be something that makes him aggressive. In a person with low testosterone, it may be something that inhibits his recovery from injuries.
The same with serotonin. It is a neurotransmitter that acts in multiple organs, including the GI tract and the brains.
If availability of serotonin in a specific part of the brain is relatively low due to some reason, this may result in depression. If specific receptors are insufficiently activated, this may result in aggressive behaviour. Its multifaceted effects and dependencies is true for all organs it is actively involved in.

Simply put:
Your body uses serotonin.
It is essential.
Up, or down regulation may signal that something is off.
You can manipulate serotonin to change the balance in whatever disorder it is involved in, for better, and for worse.
Kasper wrote:I think serotonin roles in gut irritation and diarrhea is well known.
All your quotes seem to highlight the 'negative effects' in very specific circumstances.
Are you seriously thinking that our GI might be better off without any serotonin involvement?
either the role of serotonin in the brain and in the gut is very different
Of course it is.
Even in the brain, its action is very different in different parts of the brain, and very much depending on the circumstances (receptors, activity of other neurotransmitters etc)
There is no such thing as THE role of serotonin.
serotonin is the hormone that makes you feel like misery
Please...
Besides serotonin, do you think any other hormone / neurotransmitter is either good or bad?
Or is it all about balance versus imbalance?
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby Kasper » Sat 22 Apr 2017 22:51

Besides serotonin, do you think any other hormone / neurotransmitter is either good or bad?
Or is it all about balance versus imbalance?
I don't think serotonin role in the gut is necessarily bad. I guess it kind of makes sure bad stuff gets out as soon as possible. So if there is indeed bad stuff, serotonin may have a life saving function.

Otherwise, I think elevated gut serotonin makes you feels nauseous and very sluggish. Probably one way it makes you feel sluggish is by increasing the activity of the enzyme carbonic anhydrase that gets rid of carbon dioxide. With low levels of CO2 the body is not oxygenated enough to do full oxidative metabolism and relies of lactic acid fermentation (which makes you produce even less CO2).

If I may speculate, I think plays a role in autism by making the brain so sluggish that it is almost impossible to have a real meaningful interaction with the world around them (which is process that requires a constant flow of energy).

In animals, serotonin appears to be crucially involved in the transition to the hibernation state. That may also be a beneficial function of serotonin. Kind of feeling sluggish deluxe.

I don't like feeling that way, and in my opinion having a diet with well digestable food like fresh fruit juices from (very) ripe fruits, egg yolks and slow cooked meat, fish etc. is perfect for keeping gut serotonin normal and feeling alive.
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby Aytundra » Sun 23 Apr 2017 13:26

Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 22:51
I don't like feeling that way, and in my opinion having a diet with well digestable food like fresh fruit juices from (very) ripe fruits, egg yolks and slow cooked meat, fish etc. is perfect for keeping gut serotonin normal and feeling alive.
So you will eat SPF foods
but you will not eat serotonin?
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby RRM » Sun 23 Apr 2017 14:43

Kasper wrote:I think elevated gut serotonin makes you feels ... very sluggish.
On what is this notion based?
Sluggishness as a normal result of nausea?
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby RRM » Sun 23 Apr 2017 14:51

Aytundra wrote: but you will not eat serotonin?
Dietary serotonin is not helpful, since it cannot get into the brain, because it cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Tryptophan can though.
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby Aytundra » Sun 23 Apr 2017 15:18

Let's use an analogy:
SPF - Serotonin Production Factor = metal brass, wood, tools to build bells
Serotonin = Clock Tower with Bells
Serotonin Receptors = Ears
Serotonin Inhibitors = Earmuffs and earplugs
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
I think serotonin roles in gut irritation and diarrhea is well known. Here are some sources.
Yes eating lot's of clocktowers with bells to sit in your guts is probably a bad idea.
It will make noise.
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
http://www.fasebj.org/content/26/1_Supplement/1108.4 :
In conclusion, our results indicate that abnormally increased serotonin acts as a pro-inflammatory and pro-angiogenic factor during intestinal inflammation.
Keyword is "abnormally increased serotonin".
Of course it is abnormal to swallow clock towers with bells.
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin:
In addition to animals, serotonin is found in fungi and plants.[14]

Uhm tell that to Peatearians that veggies have something they think is chaos.

Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12

Serotonin's presence in insect venoms and plant spines serves to cause pain, which is a side-effect of serotonin injection.[citation needed] Serotonin is produced by pathogenic amoebae,[citation needed] and its effect on the gut[specify] causes diarrhea.[citation needed] Its widespread presence in many seeds and fruits may serve to stimulate the digestive tract into expelling the seeds.[citation needed]


...
citations are missing. no comment.
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
If irritants are present in the food, the enterochromaffin cells release more serotonin to make the gut move faster, i.e., to cause diarrhea, so the gut is emptied of the noxious substance. If serotonin is released in the blood faster than the platelets can absorb it, the level of free serotonin in the blood is increased. This activates 5-HT3 receptors in the chemoreceptor trigger zone that stimulate vomiting.[40] The enterochromaffin cells not only react to bad food but are also very sensitive to irradiation and cancer chemotherapy. Drugs that block 5HT3 are very effective in controlling the nausea and vomiting produced by cancer treatment, and are considered the gold standard for this purpose.[41]
Clock towers with bells used as an alarm, to alarm the whole village that there are intruders with a riot of poisons seems reasonable, instead of using the clock tower hourly to make music to indicate the hour.
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
Have you ever seen someone happy when they are nausea? I think that either the role of serotonin in the brain and in the gut is very different or that serotonin is the hormone that makes you feel like misery.
I guess the villagers can place ear muffs and ear plugs over their ears while a villain comes in with poisons to knock out all the villagers.
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
Blocking serotonin seems to be helpful for autism:
http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2015/ ... 0page.html
Wearing earmuffs or earplugs is helpful?
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
Serotonin seems to be involved in the formation of traumatic memories under stress:
https://elifesciences.org/content/3/e03896v1
Which tower sounded?
Where were the towers?
Kasper wrote:
Sat 22 Apr 2017 20:12
The data thus far obtained indicate the blockade of 5-HT2 and 5-HT3 receptors with mirtazapine as an effective and promising method in fibromyalgia symptoms:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15631355
That's about wearing earmuffs and earplugs.
Is the real riot stopped?
RRM wrote:
Sun 23 Apr 2017 14:51
Aytundra wrote: but you will not eat serotonin?
Dietary serotonin is not helpful, since it cannot get into the brain, because it cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Tryptophan can though.
Dietary clock-towers-with-bells is not helpful, since it cannot get into the brain, because it cannot cross the blood-brain barrier. Clock-parts can though.

-----------------------------------------
How is that for an analogy?
Does it work?
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby Aytundra » Sun 23 Apr 2017 23:59

Now to the questions:
WaiSays wrote:Warning: Besides tryptophan, ‘happy foods’ like papaya, banana and pineapple also contain lots of serotonin, which you cannot utilize as serotonin in the brain. If you are not used to eating much of theses fruits, your body needs time to produce more enzymes decomposing the serotonin from these fruits. So, if you are not used to eating much of these fruits, increase consumption gradually to enable enzyme production keeping up with serotonin consumption. If you don’t, exogenous serotonin is not decomposed sufficiently, and can harden heart-muscles, causing mild heart pains. http://www.waiworld.com/waisays/dis-depression.html
Message equals =
Warning: Besides Clock-parts, 'happy foods' like papaya, banana and pineapple also contain lots of clock-towers-with-bells, which you cannot utilize as clock-towers-with-bells in the brain. If you are not used to eating much of theses fruits, your body needs time to produce more enzymes decomposing the serotonin from these fruits. So, if you are not used to eating much of these fruits, increase consumption gradually to enable enzyme production keeping up with clock-towers-with-bells consumption. If you don't, exogenous serotonin is not decomposed sufficiently, and can harden heart-muscles {mind-muscles}*, causing mild heart {mind}* pains.
* modern translation of the archaic word of heart for the word mind.
{You know, i've gotta keep the translations consistent to switching it into an archaic text of the cathedral bell era!}.

Does that mean that ingested clock-towers-with-bells need extra cautions?
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby Aytundra » Sun 30 Apr 2017 04:55

I am sorry I got the Clock Tower with bells analogy is all wrong!
There is no such thing as ear muffs and ear plugs! (Pharmaceuticals would love consumers to think mistakenly that way, because it sounds nice that they are solving the problem, but it is not actually how they are solving the problem. In fact they may cause problems with their solutions).

After looking at the diagrams of SSRIs, now I remember from my neurology classes.
SSRI Drugs are acting on inhibiting reuptake!

That is the analogy will change to:
There is a clock tower with bells.
The bells are handed out from the tower, in times of importance, when the village mayor requires people to pass Messages around to the village.
The SSRI Drugs are bell-shaped foam molds that plugs the bell shaped windows of the tower inhibiting the bells from being returned back to the tower.
This leaves the bells in the synaptic cleft (open village space), allowing the bells to stay in the village longer.
It will be more noisy!

Why are there these bell-shaped foam molds (that pharmaceutical companies want to sell?)
It is explained by the pharma-econo-politico-minister-of-the-village that:
The 1st assumption is that the village itself does not produce enough bells to go around for the whole population (imagine 3 bells for a population of 10000), no one will hear the message. So our village needs to have foam-bells to plug windows.
The 2nd assumption is that the villages have a lot of old deaf elderly seniors that need a higher volume of sound to hear the message and act.
So our village needs to have foam-bells to plug windows.

Why can't the town make more shiny brass bells?
Because they don't have the ingredients! (the nutrients).

Is more shiny brass bells in a village better?
No more is not better.
The bell-keeper will know how to regulate how many bells the village needs.
But the bell-keeper needs a window to communicate from his towers, if it is clogged by plastic-foam-bell-shaped window plugs.
The bell-keeper will not be able to regulate bells.

Why can't the town be populated by non-deaf villagers?
Because the noise gets louder and louder as more clocktowers around the whole province use foam-bells to plug windows.
Hence more people become deaf.
With an increase in deafness of the population, more clocktowers have to plug more bell-shaped windows. The cycle is vicious, soon the whole town would be reliant on foam-bells to plug windows, and the bells going around and around get broken and never taken back into the tower for the bell-keeper to repair or recycle. The grassy land becomes littered with metal, and become less habitable by villagers.
(The medical dose has to go up, because the patient got use to it, it doesn't work anymore at lower dose, it is same with any drugs).

And it isn't that they need more shiny brass bells, it is the bell system that got broken in the first place by clutter (from bad food), clogging the windows causing villagers unable to return bells, and keeping bells in use longer causing some villagers to acquire deafness and some villagers unable to live in a metal littered landscape.

ALL Antidepressants drugs do is to make sure the bells never get returned to the tray where the bells originated!
It is actually not a reliable way to solve the bell problem.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Re: Serotonin Good or Bad? Wai Says vs Peat Forum

Postby RRM » Sun 30 Apr 2017 19:56

Serotonin is both a message and a messenger. It delivers the message in various tissues, and each recipient interprets the message differently, which also depends on the circumstances.
Don't shoot the messenger, please!

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