ketogenic diet

[panacea]

Also, about the rabbit starvation, it's a good thing to bring up. The highest danger on a ketogenic diet is improperly eating too much protein. High protein diets are bad across the board, keto or not, nothing puts you on a faster track to death in my opinion, just makes you feel awful. That's why even all standard ketogenic diet sources stress the importance of moderate or low protein.

[Aytundra]

Did you read the rabbit starvation thing? I guess you skimmed it.

Don't skim on the fats (it could be cholesterol thing too), it looks like fats are important part of that starvation equation.

I hear a lot of uhmms and ahhs and more uhmms and ahhs?

Some other things that are unknown territory,...I have a hunch ... I bet ... Perhaps less fat is even needed. I have no idea, but all fats may not be equal, just as all proteins and carbs aren't.. it seems logical at least. Also, by ingesting less ... the body probably has a lower digestive load (requires less energy to deal with all of those problems that are suddenly gone), so total dietary needs may decrease ...
Furthermore, breathing (buteyko related) may normalize ...

Just be very very very careful! pretty pretty please! ok?

you are sure you did all your research?

[panacea]

Rabbit Starvation: I read the first two sentences, is there something specific that is valuable from that article?

I was thinking what would happen to the glycogen storage liver department when you stop using them.
Does it become obsolete like the appendix? Would you lose your function to process glycogen?

I don't think so, children with epilepsy have been on keto diets for very long periods with no such effects,
and some doctors who closely monitor their ketogenic diet effects have been on the diet for 10 years, with no signs of that.
Generally, thinking that an organ will break down because it's not used as much regarding one thing and not even the only thing it does at all, with no googling or research or anything to back that up, is just going to sound paranoid/ridiculous, and if that happens again and again, eventually you'll be identified as the paranoia person (crying wolf without looking it up)

Same thing with the uhms and ahs comment, completely unsubstantiated. It sounds like you have poor communication skills or are acting stupid/strange for some reason. I find your conjecture about me useless, so please don't troll my thread, go create your own if you need a place to spew nonsense. I don't want any useless comments like that getting in the way of reading meaningful posts by others.

[Aytundra]

Sorry, if I cannot express myself well. I am working on my writing skills.
i mean well though.

Here is a quote:

The ketogenic diet is a special high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet that helps to control seizures in some people with epilepsy.
Doctors usually recommend the ketogenic diet for children whose seizures have not responded to several different seizure medicines.
The typical ketogenic diet, called the "long-chain triglyceride diet," provides 3 to 4 grams of fat for every 1 gram of carbohydrate and protein.
Several studies have shown that the ketogenic diet does reduce or prevent seizures in many children whose seizures could not be controlled by medications.

[panacea]

3 to 4 grams of fat for every 1 gram of carb and protein using cooked food sources for epileptic children, maybe
the bigger you are, the more protein you're made of, the more protein you need to eat. adults are considerably bigger than children

however, 100 g of protein a day may possibly be too much for me, a 6'8" tall male, on a raw wai keto diet, it's not really documented before in a modern context (the raw animal food for vast majority of energy) aspect. protein needs may indeed be lowered, but that will show itself in time by natural appetite.

[Aytundra]

At the bottom of the Rabbit Starvation article on Wikipedia, they quoted from Charles Darwin with citation to a book, though I am not sure about the accuracy of the citation as I do not have a copy of Charles Darwin's The Voyage of the Beagle, at least it sounds interesting of what he noted about people not eating for a few days, and how those people ate their meats.

Charles Darwin, in The Voyage of the Beagle, wrote:
We were here able to buy some biscuit. I had now been several days without tasting any thing besides meat: I did not at all dislike this new regimen; but I felt as if it would only have agreed with me with hard exercise. I have heard that patients in England, when desired to confine themselves exclusively to an animal diet, even with the hope of life before their eyes, have hardly been able to endure it. Yet the Gaucho in the Pampas, for months together, touches nothing but beef. But they eat, I observe, a very large proportion of fat, which is of a less animalized nature; and they particularly dislike dry meat, such as that of the Agouti. Dr. Richardson, also, has remarked, “that when people have fed for a long time solely upon lean animal food, the desire for fat becomes so insatiable, that they can consume a large quantity of unmixed and even oily fat without nausea:” this appears to me a curious physiological fact. It is, perhaps, from their meat regimen that the Gauchos, like other carnivorous animals, can abstain long from food. I was told that at Tandeel, some troops voluntarily pursued a party of Indians for three days, withouteating or drinking.[8]

8. ^Charles, Darwin (2006). "Voyage of the Beagle: Bahia Blanca to Buenos Ayres". In Wilson, Edward. From So Simple A Beginning: The Four Great Books of Charles Darwin. London, New York: W. W. Norton & Company. p. 121. ISBN 0-393-06134-5.

however, 100 g of protein a day may possibly be too much for me, a 6'8" tall male, on a raw wai keto diet, it's not really documented before in a modern context (the raw animal food for vast majority of energy) aspect. protein needs may indeed be lowered, but that will show itself in time by natural appetite.

I am also thinking, you need to be aware of how the ketogenic diet might affect your eating patterns. Such that it might not be a decrease in food requirements, but that it is spaced out over a longer period of time before feeding time.

[Novidez]

coconut oil is often held as the holy grail for keto dieters, and I think it's a big mistake, the stuff just tastes weird compared to the other keto foods

Yeah, I've read it too. Those MCTs are just a great source of energy being on ketosis.
Eating it alone tastes weird, but it's not that bad, come on. I can take one tsp. or more all alone and I like it xD. Can't you eat it with other foods? Or you don't appreciate it at all?

[panacea]

Coconut Oil / MCT oil does give a lot of energy, but I suspect there are harmful implications to eating a lot of it regularly, in place of raw animal food fat. I don't have anything concrete to back this up, it's just several trends I picked up while reading various things, the trend seems to be "protein/fats are higher quality from animal food sources", except this is not so true in the regard that animal sources are cooked and many fruit fat/protein sources are typically not, however comparing raw to raw, I think animal sources win. I also don't like the idea of just eating fat or protein separately with animal sources (such as eating beef fat without meat), so for the same reason I don't like the idea of using a coconut that way, it just seems like it would an imbalance that would need to be fixed later, with like a super-protein meal, and the more you do that, the more artificial your food sources tend to be. So right now I'm leaning towards fatty wild caught sockeye salmon for example, fatty organic egg yolks without extra omegas added, and fatty cuts of grassfed beef (70% lean). Sea salt and spring water coupled with this should in theory make someone very healthy, even with only those foods. However I intend to add 1 small kiwi a day, just for the vitamin c, even though there are trends I'm reading stating vitamin c requirements are severely lowered on a very low carb diet, and that you can get some from raw beef for example. I'm sure the diet will evolve over time for me, as I learn more and find more good raw keto foods, but this is a sufficient starting point (I started today). I've been on a ketogenic diet which included cooked bacon, cheese, cooked beef, cooked chicken, cooked eggs, etc for close to a month now. My cravings for carbs are basically completely gone and completely under control, so now I'm taking it to stage 2.

[RRM]

The definition of starvation is putting severely less energy in or getting less energy out of what you put in
The phrase starvation mode simply means your body is in a state where it is ready to use bodily energy stores, or evoke autophagy, to supply much of its energy needs.

So, when you said: "24/7 in starvation mode", you do not mean a mode in which there is less energy coming in than utilized.
You do not mean a state of energy deficit.
You do not mean to say "starvation mode".
You just mean to say that you are "ready for it".
That you are always (24/7), "ready to be in starvation mode".
You are up to it.

Let me use an analogy:

I am in a running mode 24/7

You cannot run 24/7

But I am ready to run 24/7, even when i am sleeping

So, you are not constantly running / speed-walking / walking?

No, but i am always ready. I even sleep with my running shoes on,
so im always in a running mode

How much sense does that make?
How much weight does such a claim carry?

The reason why we use the phrase "starvation mode", is because we cannot directly say: "i am starving", which would literally mean that you are dying (or craving for a snack )
So,we cannot use the verb "starving".
Instead, we use the phrase "starvation mode", which means that instead of talking about the 'agony of starving', we are talking about a controlled set of conditions in which less energy is consumed than utilised, for a controlled period of time.

To make sure, let me ask again.
When you say:

Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7

Do you mean a state/mode in which you are constantly taking in less energy than utilized?
Yes or no?
(are you running, or just wearing a pair of sneakers 24/7?)

[panacea]

You're saying I meant to say things that I didn't say or mean to say.
Starvation mode is an adequate level of ketosis, that can mean nutritional ketosis or fasting ketosis. During any kind of adequate level of ketosis, you are eating part of yourself for energy, in other words your body is "starving" for energy by the normal means - glycogen stores. In nutritional ketosis, you continually resupply your body fat so that your body can continue to eat it (in part). That doesn't take you out of starvation mode completely, like a non-ketogenic diet does, because you're still in ketosis, and still eating yourself, both by autophagy and by making ketones.

The definition of "mode":
a way or manner in which something occurs or is experienced, expressed, or done.

So in order to "starve", you have to be in ketosis, either by fasting or a ketogenic diet or a ketogenic level of energy intake.

Your misguided analogy relies on your belief that I said starvation mode is only, and nothing else, being ready to eat yourself. This is an incorrect interpretation, since in order to be ready to use bodily energy stores, or evoke autophagy, you have to already be in ketosis, and be in an immediate-energy deficit, enough to warrant going into ketosis/autophagy. A body adapts to this state by largely switching from dietary carb fuels and using bodyfat/protein and dietary fat/protein for energy, at this point it is simultaneously ready and adapted to starvation mode, and undergoing it at the same time. In other words, it's a gradual process, unlike running where there is a clear definition of when you are ready to run, and actually running, going into ketosis is a more gradual process, the "starting point" we identify with is being in ketosis, at which point you're already in starvation mode.

So a better analogy would be:
Fasting - running fast
Ketogenic diet - running at half that speed
RRM tries to tell the ketogenic diet runner that he is not actually in running mode, even though he is actually running, though not as fast as the "fasting" runner.
The ketogenic dieter says that although it may not be as apparent that he is running compared to the "fasting" runner, similar metabolic effects are happening to him as the "fasting" runner, because he is in the "running state", and will continue to be ready to evoke the same metabolic effects as the "fasting" runner as long as he maintains a running speed, whether it be slightly slower at some times (while snacking) or greater speed at other times (in between snacks).

In response to your question about "do you mean a state/mode in which you are constantly taking in less energy than utilized"
How much raw energy you intake based on how much raw energy you are utilizing at any given moment is irrelevant if you can't access the energy you intake quickly enough. For example say that every hour I'm alive, I need a certain amount of energy to stay alive. If I eat 10x that amount of energy in the form of dietary fat, it still may not be able to feed all parts of me, that require other types of fuel, it still may not be able to get to where it needs to go as quickly and efficiently as glucose, so that the body will utilize body fat stores, or autophagy, in parts of the body to sustain the constant energy demand, even if it has a huge store of dietary fat energy elsewhere, further out of reach. The body can afford to do this since it can better store dietary fat as body fat, for later. The body relatively can't store a lot of carbs, and can utilize high glyogen stores much more quickly in various areas of the body when saturated from dietary carbs, so the energy dynamic is vastly different when talking about a ketogenic diet than a high carb diet.

So in response to your question, obviously, it depends. Starvation mode can be constantly taking in less energy than utilized, such as fasting or eating one slice of red meat a day, or even a normal ketogenic diet with a caloric deficit, or starvation mode can be taking in more energy than utilized, but in a form that is inaccessible to the body all-at-once, which would in turn kick someone out of ketosis and autophagy, that would be a cyclical ketogenic diet, or intermittent fasting, depending on what one is doing, and in turn make one be in a cyclical starvation mode.

[RRM]

In response to your question about "do you mean a state/mode in which you are constantly taking in less energy than utilized"
How much raw energy you intake based on how much raw energy you are utilizing at any given moment is irrelevant ... it depends

Not any give "moment",
but any given hour (of the 24).

So, when you claim:

Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7

Do you mean a mode in which during any hour of the day less energy is entering the blood stream than the amount of energy utilized by the body during that same hour?

[panacea]

Since ketone bodies (a form of energy) can enter the bloodstream (and does) both in fasting and in nutritional ketosis, the level of energy entering the bloodstream may be perfectly adequate or even a surplus, but when it comes from ketone bodies it can certainly be coming from bodily energy stores (body fat) which is still "eating yourself", whether in fasting ketosis or nutritional ketosis.

A mode in which during any hour of the day less energy is entering the blood stream (ketone body energy included) than energy utilized by the body during that same hour would mean that not even fasting is always a "starvation mode", so this is clearly ridiculous.

Perhaps we can make this clear and understandable by using simple terms,
Starvation "mode" is using bodily energy stores such as energy from ketone bodies and energy evoked by autophagy to a meaningful degree (not just tiny amounts). Ketone bodies are not isolated to "ketogenic diets", though it sounds similar (to other readers) they are the primary source of energy while fasting as well.
Starvation "mode" "24/7" is doing this 24/7, every given hour.

While in starvation "mode", you are on the fast track to a caloric deficit since you are relatively low in glycogen stores, and using body fat and autophagy for energy needs. However, using a nutiritonal ketogenic diet, you can prolong actual starvation indefinitely, as long as you keep dieting. This means "starvation mode" is not "eventual starvation if you continue" neccesarily, it means you are evoking the same/similar bodily processes as when in the very initial stages of starving (the non dangerous ones). It is a "mode", a "bodily adaptation" and not actually starvation, which even fasting is not as long as you have ample bodily energy stores. By contrast, an anorexic person who "fasts" for a meaningful length of time will experience "actual starvation", which is not desirable or beneficial at all.

[panacea]

The big picture here of course is that a ketogenic diet mimics fasting, and the initial stages of starvation, while every single non-ketogenic diet does not. Even fasting is a ketogenic diet with (when fasting is synonymous with only water/vitamin/electrolyte intake) 0 macronutrient intake. Fasting is the most speedy and intense way to induce ketosis under normal circumstances (ignoring ketoacidosis and/or exercise). However the big picture is that both ketogenic diets with plenty of calories, and fasting, evoke the same/similar processes in the body, and put the body in the same modes/adaptations (not identical, of course, as there are differences, but the vast majority of important adaptations take place in both, that is why I use the term "mode" and not "identical processes"). This is also ignoring very unhealthy fasting durations, which lead to plainly undesirable effects that outweigh any autophagy benefits. The issue I was bringing up before, is that fasting, while quick and intense effects can be observed, and is often healthier than continuing a diet without fasting, is a harsher approach when there is an easier way to reap the same benefits, and not have to go back to replenishing periods of non-keto dieting, by doing a ketogenic diet.

[RRM]

A mode in which during any hour of the day less energy is entering the blood stream (ketone body energy included) than energy utilized by the body during that same hour would mean that not even fasting is always a "starvation mode", so this is clearly ridiculous.

I am talking about consumed energy (in that hour) versus energy utilized (in that hour).
There are versions of intermittent fasting in which no food at all is consumed for 24 hours (followed by a day of bulking up).
That means that in all those 24 hours of fasting, less energy is consumed than utilized.
And that means that the body is in starvation mode for the entire 24 hours.
There are also versions of fasting in which little energy is consumed during the day.
Let me give you an example:
During 16 hours of the day you may consume only 50 kcal per hour, with 8 more hours of sleep. This means that you will be in a starvation mode for all those 24 hours, because less energy is consumed than utilized.
So, when you claim that

Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in starvation mode 24/7

Do you mean a mode in which during any hour of the day less energy is entering the blood stream (from food consumed) than the amount of energy utilized by the body during that same hour?

[panacea]

Do you mean a mode in which during any hour of the day less energy is entering the blood stream (from food consumed) than the amount of energy utilized by the body during that same hour?

Since body fat/ketones and all bodily energy is created from previous food and air consumed, all energy entering the blood stream, fasting or not, came from food/air consumed. So what I mean is exactly what I said before: Starvation "mode" is using bodily energy stores such as energy from ketone bodies and energy evoked by autophagy to a meaningful degree (not just tiny amounts). This can be supplemented by dietary energy, but on a ketogenic diet, ketogenic dietary energy is never enough by itself to feed all organs (if it was, for example by eating a ton of protein, you would convert enough of that to glucose to exit ketosis, and feed organs that rely on only glucose even while keto adapted, removing the need to be in ketosis, if you do that, you're no longer on a ketogenic diet)

The body can be in starvation mode even if it consumes ample amounts of energy, because it can't always utilize all of that dietary energy to fulfill its needs without first converting it to bodily energy stores (not talking about fast-release glycogen here). How much dietary energy is ingested doesn't equal how much dietary energy is available to the body (in the case of a ketogenic diet), it only partly fills the demand, the rest goes into bodily energy stores. Furthermore, even if all typical ketogenic dietary energy could be utilized at the same speed as typical dietary carbohydrate energy, not all organs can use it, which forces the body to recycle glucose, evoke autophagy, and keep ketosis intact (to spare what little glucose it has for those organs, and allow everything else to use ketones). This is the same effect that happens while fasting, to a lesser extent.