fruits (fructose) make you fat, not 4 muscle glycogen

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ilcapomanuel
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fruits (fructose) make you fat, not 4 muscle glycogen

Post by ilcapomanuel »

I'm bodybuilder and i think you can not gain any muscle with your diet. Here there is a link that explain that.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/issa14.htm

what do you think ?

regards, juan manuel
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Welcome Juan Manuel,

Can you please exerpt from that article what you think shows that you cannot gain muscle mass with this diet?
And why this title? (fruits make you fat)
ilcapomanuel
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Post by ilcapomanuel »

Thanks to reply me,
RRM wrote:Welcome Juan Manuel,

Can you please exerpt from that article what you think shows that you cannot gain muscle mass with this diet?
And why this title? (fruits make you fat)
go to www.bodybuilding.com, there are a lot of bodyduilding diets and there aren't any fruitarian diets to build muscles.

"This is the biochemistry behind the recommendations to limit fruit in your diet. As mentioned, fruit is a very nutritious food full of vitamins, minerals, fiber, and low in calories and fat. If your goal is to exclusively to minimize bodyfat, then it is advisable that you consume more complex carbohydrates, which will go to replenishing muscle glycogen stores rather than fruit, which will only replenish liver glycogen stores, and is useless in muscle glycogen replenishment."

"Once the fructose (fruit sugar) enters the liver and liver glycogen is already full, then it cannot be used by the muscles for glycogen or energy production"

Thanks, Juan Manuel
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Post by RRM »

The main sugars in fruits are sucrose, fructose and glucose.
Sucrose = white / brown table sugar = glucose + fructose.
Starch = glucose + glucose + glucose etc.

Fructose generally goes a different pathway than glucose, being converted in directly available energy.
If blood-fructose levels rise, fructose is (mainly by the liver) converted into glucose: Fructose > fructose-1-phosphate > glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate >(by the enzyme aldolase) fructose-1,6-bisphosphate > fructose-6-phosphate > glucose.
(That is why in hereditary fructose intolerance, a lack of aldolase B inhibits the conversion of fructose into glucose, which can result in too low blood glucose levels.)

Some fruits are higher in fructose, others are higher in glucose:

ratio glucose / fructose (in g/100g)

apples 2,0 / 5,7
pears 1,7 / 6,7
mango 0,9 / 2,6
watermelon 2,0 / 3,9
guava 2,1 / 3,4
peach 1,0 / 1,2
pineapple 2,1 / 2,4
raspberries 1,8 / 2,0
orange 2,3 / 2,6
kiwi 4,3 / 4,6
grapes 7,2 / 7,4
strawberries 2,2 / 2,3

dried dates 25 / 25
raisin (sultana) 31 / 31
sapodilla 6 / 6

dried figs 26 / 24
banana 3,6 / 3,4
muskmelon 1,6 / 1,3
sweet cherries 6,9 / 6,1
grapefruit 2,4 / 2,1
mirabelle 5,1 / 4,3
mandarin 1,7 / 1,3
granadilla (passion-fruit) 3,6 / 2,8
dried plums 16 / 9
litchi (lychee) 5 / 3,2
apricot 1,7 / 0,9
sapote 3,4 / 1,4
papaya (paw paw) 1,0 / 0,3
prickly pear (opuntie) 4,9 / 0,1

If you consume lots of fruits, the sugars they supply you with, will averagely consist of about 50% fructose.

Total fructose (incl. from sucrose) contents relative to total carbs

62% Guava
62% Pear
61% Apple
61% Watermelon
57% Mango
52% Orange
52% Kiwi
51% Strawberry
51% Pineapple
50% Grapes
49% Muskmelon
49% dried dates
48% dried figs
48% Mandarin
47% Cherry
46% Peach
43% Banana
40% Apricot
36% Plum

To create glycogen stored in the liver (about 400 kcal) or the muscles (about 1200 kcal), we indeed need glucose. But not too much at once, because even if that is glucose only, that would result in creating extra bodyfat.
Both glucose and fructose (and amino acids) stimulate glycogen synthesis. What we need to fill up the glycogen depots, is the gradual uptake of more sugars than required to replenish lost blood sugars, including glucose.
Yes, glucose is readily converted into muscle glycogen and fructose into liver glycogen. Fructose is however also used for direct energy, converted into glucose, just as fructose stored as liver glycogen. Also, liver glycogen spares muscle glycogen.
Once the glycogen depots are full, extra sugars will be converted into bodyfat. If liver glycogen is full only, extra fructose will indeed by stored as fat, but since liver glycogen gets depleted in between meals (and also through exercise), thats not a likely option when consuming small meals.
With this diet, you constantly prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue by eating small meals very frequently (when you are low in energy, your liver glycogen is close to empty), also facilitating the increase of muscle glycogen.
Actually, fructose facilitates the gradual utilization of glucose for glycogen as it evokes little insulinemic responses. (glucose + glucose > glucose + fructose) Also, adequate blood-fructose levels do not inhibit fatty acid utilization nearly as much as adequate blood-glucose levels do, so that fructose better helps you to get ripped.

The size of the meal is extremely important; If the uptake of sugars (whatever sugars / starches) is too sudden, then much of it will be converted into bodyfat too.
So that its not so much about which sugars are consumed, but how they affect the blood sugar level. If you consume big meals, much of it is converted into bodyfat.
If you consume many small meals very frequently throughout the day, a mixed supply of fructose and glucose perfectly enables you to create much glycogen without creating much bodyfat.
more complex carbohydrates, which will go to replenishing muscle glycogen stores rather than fruit, which will only replenish liver glycogen stores, and is useless in muscle glycogen replenishment.
Fruit contains both glucose and fructose which replenishes both glycogen depots. As replenishing takes time, and liver glycogen gets depleted in between meals (muscle glycogen not so), fruit sugars can perfectly replete liver glycogen.
"Once the fructose (fruit sugar) enters the liver and liver glycogen is already full, then it cannot be used by the muscles for glycogen or energy production"
True, but liver glycogen is depleted much more than muscle glycogen, as liver glycogen can be re-converted into glucose. In between all small (and big) meals, liver glycogen is re-converted into glucose, so that the liver glycogen levels go up and down, whereas muscle-glycogen only goes up (when physically inactive, of course)
So, during the day there is plenty of time for the gradual filling up of muscle glycogen without conversion of fructose into fat.
The very frequent small meals are very effective as they also prevent the breakdown of muscle protein in amino acids, which happens when liver-glycogen is depleted. (maximally 400 kcal is not that much)

This study showed that a high fructose diet increased glycogen in both the liver and the muscles.
Murakami, et al, Enlargement of glycogen store in rat liver and muscle by fructose-diet intake and exercise training. J. Appl. Physiol. 1997 (82) / 772-775
haraldsmith
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Post by haraldsmith »

assuming someone is just sitting at the desk doing office work, how long would it take to deplete 400kcal of energy from the liver, approx?
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Post by RRM »

Assuming the liver has priorly been totally filled up with glycogen, approx 3 to 4 hours.
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Post by haraldsmith »

even tho the liver would be depleted, consuming a 400kcal meal every 3-4 hours would result in a high insulin spike, with a small percetage of actual absorption and a possibilty of storing body fat?
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Post by RRM »

haraldsmith wrote:even tho the liver would be depleted, consuming a 400kcal meal every 3-4 hours would result in a high insulin spike
Yes, it would result in a high insulin spike, but that would be necessary for the glucose to enter the liver cells. Insulin stimulates the action of enzymes in the liver to chain the glucose molecules together to create glycogen. At the same time, also muscle glycogen is created.
, with a small percentage of actual absorption and a possibilty of storing body fat?
Not a small absorption percentage. The glucose consumed is well ingested and utilized or converted into glycogen, but yes, always some fat is stored. No worries there though, as fat is utilized 24/7 as well.
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Post by haraldsmith »

So assuming it would take 4 hours to deplete 400kcal from the liver, what would be the difference from repleneshing it every hour with 100kcal of energy or 400kcals at 4 hours?
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Post by RRM »

Replenishing it with 400 kcal at once, a smaller percentage is for replenishing lost blood-sugar. Lower 'waves' of glucose influx are more in accordance with other causes of blood glucose fluctuations (as the result of opposing hormones or physical activity, for example).
Also, if the 400 kcal is readily absorbed (as in OJ), the insulin spike is very (too) great. If the 400 kcal is from whole fruits, there still is a great insulin spike, but not as much.
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Post by chris m failla »

Does eating meat and eggs only, cause an insulin spike. And another question, does insulin cause disease. If so, is there a low carb version of wai diet.
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Post by chris m failla »

I found all the answers to my questions on the wai forums from 2002. So no need to reply to my recent questions on low carbing and insulin. Thank you very much. :D
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Post by johndela1 »

chris m failla wrote:I found all the answers to my questions on the wai forums from 2002. So no need to reply to my recent questions on low carbing and insulin. Thank you very much. :D
Can you post a link to where you read this? I'd like to see if it something I haven't read.
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Post by chris m failla »

Just go to waisay.com. and go to forums. Then go to the topics that are against wai diet but worth keeping.
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Post by RRM »

chris m failla wrote:Just go to waisay.com. and go to forums. Then go to the topics that are against wai diet but worth keeping.
Very good!
Thats where these forums are for! 8)

But, answering these questions anyway...
chris m failla wrote:Does eating meat and eggs only, cause an insulin spike.
If you would eat them in very small amounts throughout the day, in as much as you would sip juice, no, they would not.
But, yes, they can perfectly spike insulin levels when consumed in big meals, as protein can very much trigger insulin (even more so than sugar).
does insulin cause disease.
No, just like its counterparts glucagon and somatostatin, its an essential hormone that enables the body to regulate the blood energy levels. Without insulin that would not be possible. Insulin, for example is also essential for the uptake of amino acids in the brain, and for the conversion of glucose into glycogen, so that we can use spare muscle energy when required (for fleeing from danger, for example).
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