Probiotics

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RRM
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Postby RRM » Tue 01 Jun 2010 09:09

Jodiat wrote:
Yea, but this is like saying if you have a broken bone and 'just let it mend' while it may mend dissfigured. While going to the hospital and have it in a splint or cast and it mends without problem.
Here me taking probiotics would be akin to going to the hospital with my broken bone and making sure.
If antibiotics kill everything in the bowels and my diet is poor after stopping I can vouch that candidia will be on its way...probiotics can help out in such cases untill the body can fight even and heal.
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Postby RRM » Tue 01 Jun 2010 09:10

Jodiat wrote:Yea, but this is like saying if you have a broken bone and 'just let it mend' while it may mend dissfigured. While going to the hospital and have it in a splint or cast and it mends without problem.
In the hospital they first take an x-ray picture of your bone,
as to find out about the exact nature of the fracture,
so that they know how to provide you with the proper splint or cast.
Here me taking probiotics would be akin to going to the hospital with my broken bone and making sure.
No, you are self-medicating.
You did not analyze your bacteria balance priorly.
So, you dont know if and what bacteria are under- or overrepresented.
So, you have no idea what bacteria to add.
There are over 400 beneficial bacteria in your bowels.
Which ones were underrepresented and did you have to supplement?
If antibiotics kill everything in the bowels
They dont.
Just to some extend.
If everything in your bowels would have been killed, you would have died.
When you survive, your body can recover all by itself.
probiotics can help out in such cases untill the body can fight even and heal.
Studies have shown that in people with severely weakened defense,
taking probiotics is actually dangerous and may even be life-threatening.
When antibiotics have weakened your defense, all you need to do is limit the intake of all bad stuff.
Then you enable the body to recover. all by itself.
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Postby RRM » Tue 01 Jun 2010 09:11

Jodiat wrote:
Yes yes but what if you dont limit the bad stuff like 'most' people who use antibiotics?

Sure I self medicated. I had to because the doctors/derms didnt have a clue and still dont.

I agree Antibiotics will not kill all but they change the balance. Probiotics can help change the balance. Are you saying we shoulnt breast feed children too? If we dont need to 'put things in' then breast feeding isnt really important is...but we all know it is and why.
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Postby RRM » Tue 01 Jun 2010 09:11

Jodiat wrote:but what if you dont limit the bad stuff like 'most' people who use antibiotics?
Even then you need a proper diagnosis prior to medication.
Probiotics are a medication, as they may cause a shift in the balance of bacteria in your colon.
I agree Antibiotics will not kill all but they change the balance. Probiotics can help change the balance.
So, what bacteria in your colon are killed by the antibiotics, and what bacteria are not?
In other words, how exactly has the balance of bacteria shifted in your colon?
Simplified:
Your colon contains bacteria A, B, C, D, E and F.
Antibiotics killed 1% of A, 10% of B, 50% of C and D, 90% of E and 99% of F.
Then you would need a probiotics mix of predominantly F and E and to a lesser extend of D and C, plus just a little B and A.
Of course, probiotics never contain exactly that mix required.
Now imagine 400 bacteria...
How do you know how much you need of what bacteria?
If that mix contains high levels of bacteria not needed so much, that may make it very hard for your bowels to get the right balance restored.

There is someone who does know what balance is needed exactly.
Its your body.
It will restore exactly that balance that is required.
All we need to do is stop taking the antibiotics and all other stuff that may interfere
(stuff that causes constipation, cramps or gasses).
Are you saying we shoulnt breast feed children too? If we dont need to 'put things in' then breast feeding isnt really important is...but we all know it is and why.
Thats not a fair comparison.
Breast milk is produced by the female body, carefully designed for the baby.
Probiotics are made by some manufacturer to make a profit.
Do you really think that this profit seeker knows exactly (and better than your own body) what your bowels need?
And do you think that your bowels need exactly the same mix as everybody else?
That the effects of all antibiotics are always the same, in everybody?

In the womb, babies get everything from their mama.
After they are born, they will gradually become independent,
and initially their immune system will co-depend on antibodies obtained from breast milk.
Only after a while, they have to do everything on their own.

Once you are grown up, your body has remarkable recovering abilities.
Some people tend to think that we are smarter than our own body;
that we know better than our own body what bacteria it needs in what quantities in the gut exactly.
And that we can buy that superior balance in a small bottle.
All we need to do is to burden our body as little as possible, to enable proper recovery.
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Postby Jodiat » Tue 01 Jun 2010 17:14

Ok lets flip this slightly away from probiotic supplements because I do think your points are valid.

Lets look at probiotics in natural food stuff such as yogurt, kefir and miso. Culturing these foods make them much more easier to digest for example. Some cultures only ever used these when fermented such as saurkraut they also helped store for a harsh winter were food was harder to find.

Now these foods have a vast matrix of living probiotics. I believe if your testing your body with these your immune system will recover much faster after antibiotics then not.
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Postby RRM » Tue 01 Jun 2010 18:53

Jodiat wrote: Now these foods have a vast matrix of living probiotics.
Sure, but they do not reflect the balance needed in the body.
Supplementing (in whatever way) bacteria in ratios that are so much different,
you are more likely to hinder the establishment of the ratios required.
Why is it that you think that we can do better than our body?
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Postby Jodiat » Tue 01 Jun 2010 19:15

Maybe not but thats similar to say we dont always need X Y or Z in a food when we eat it but still get it. The body does what it needs with what it wants. We must eat to survive so its par for the course that what we eat is what we become. Why do you think our body would not benefit from cultured foods for example.
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Postby RRM » Wed 02 Jun 2010 20:19

Jodiat wrote:Why do you think our body would not benefit from cultured foods for example.
It will benefit from foods, period; cultured or not, cooked or not,
it will always take nutrients.
The small amounts of bacteria in raw foods trigger the defense system to develop.
The bacteria are the trigger.
We dont need to import lots of cultured foods in our body,
our body just needs that trigger, so that our body can culture those bacteria in the proper balance.
If we ingest large amounts of bacteria, its not the body who determines that balance,
but your ideas of how it should be.
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Postby jonncarlo » Tue 15 Jun 2010 11:20

You just continue you medication and as you know there are two of the most abundant and best known probiotics in the intestines are Bifidobacterium and lactobacillus. These probiotics adhere to the intestinal walls and multiply helping keep our bodies health.
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Postby Oscar » Tue 15 Jun 2010 11:31

And how many of those, and in what ratio, do we need? And what about all the other bacteria species?

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