Why are fruits so much better than veggies?

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RRM
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Re: Why are fruits so much better?

Postby RRM » Wed 28 Nov 2012 10:16

overkees wrote:
RRM wrote:So, its very wise to minimize nitrate intake.
In tomatoes the nitrate content is:
Nitrate level in analysed tomatoes ranges between 82.24116.75 mg/kg with an average of 104.69 mg/kg.
So we shouldnt be consuming them aswell?
So,
Nitrate in carrots 50 mg / 100 g.
Nitrate in apples 10 mg / 100 g.
It seems the choice between apples and carrots is clear, regarding nitrate.
And thats just a comparison between a high-nitrate fruit and a low-nitrate vegetable.
So, the advantage of fruits over veggies is clear regarding nitrate.
And yes, of course one should buy organic fruits, to minimize nitrate intake.
overkees wrote:The pectin content in ripe apples is still alot more than carrots.
In apples in general?
Sure, there may be some varieties higher in pectins than others, but on average?
Not according to Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectin#Sou ... production
apples, 1–1.5%
carrots approx. 1.4%
And the riper the apple, the lower its pectin contents,
which is not true for carrots.
if you just go for taste you will find some vegetables that are still very healthy.
Getting cancer from nitrosamines is not very healthy in my book.
Oh god, the nitrate in tomatoes and cucumbers is really threatening
Then why even consider eating veggies that contain many times more nitrate?
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby overkees » Wed 28 Nov 2012 10:26

Yes, the same goes for these vegetables. Best bought organic. But that doesn't mean a big reduction in nitrate. Please show me some numbers, because I haven't found alot of them. And in fact sometimes the nitrate was even higher than in conventional grown crops..

What about cucumbers? They contain an afwul lot of nitrate": http://www.iuss.org/19th%20WCSS/Symposium/pdf/0090.pdf
100mg/100g
Twice as much as carrots. Ahaha! Still recommend that "healthy" wai salad with tomato and cucumber, RRM?
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby RRM » Wed 28 Nov 2012 10:36

overkees wrote:What about cucumbers?
vegetable-fruits.
In the title of this topic it says "fruits", not "vegetable-fruits".
Fruits are superior over vegetables and vegetable-fruits.
Ahaha! Still recommend that "healthy" wai salad with tomato and cucumber, RRM?
Its an option, for people who enjoy salads very much.
Of course, its better to eat fruits only, indeed.
They contain an afwul lot of nitrate": http://www.iuss.org/19th%20WCSS/Symposium/pdf/0090.pdf
That very same article says:
"Total mean comparisons show that almost all sampled vegetables (except lettuce) have nitrate higher than standards.
Vegetables are the major source of the daily intake of nitrate by human beings, supplying about 72–94% of
the total intake. Part of this nitrate-N is converted to nitrite and N-nitroso compounds that have detrimental
effects on human health
"
overkees wrote:Best bought organic. But that doesn't mean a big reduction in nitrate.
The article you quoted says this:
"Management practices such as proper fertilizer application follow the soil testing and deleting the chemical
fertilizers subsides and use of organic materials and biofertilizers to reduce the risk of nitrate accumulation
help keep the produced crops safe."


One can significantly reduce nitrate accumulation.

"After the 24-h incubation, the N(2)O level in the compost soil with presence of acetylene was approximately fourfold higher than that in the compost soil with absence of acetylene. These results indicate that the low NO (3) (-) levels that are often found in the leaves of organic vegetables can be explained by compost-mediated denitrification in the soil". Ishikawa K et al

"the mean levels of nitrate were significantly (p < 0.001) higher in the conventionally grown spinach compared to the organically grown spinach" Koh E et al

"organic varieties do provide significantly greater levels of vitamin C, iron, magnesium, and phosphorus than non-organic varieties of the same foods. While being higher in these nutrients, they are also significantly lower in nitrates and pesticide residues." Crinnion WJ
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby overkees » Wed 28 Nov 2012 10:50

Yeah, nitrate accumulation in the soil. But about nitrate content in the food itself there is very little published data. And the biggest reductions in nitrate I found were 25%.

But yeah, that's exactly what this topic is about RRM. About making the diet more attractable for people. And as goes for the vegetable-fruits goes for the vegetables like carrots (and parsnips?) that are very good for you nutrient wise and have little antinutrients. You should not advocate them. But they don't deserve the discredit you are giving them. Maybe you find them not ideal. At least they offer a very delicious, nutrient packed alternative to the fruits.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby RRM » Wed 28 Nov 2012 11:03

overkees wrote:Yeah, nitrate accumulation in the soil.
Please read more carefully.
overkees wrote:But yeah, that's exactly what this topic is about RRM. About making the diet more attractable for people.
So, we have to allow more nitrate in the diet?
Thats an unwise idea.
And on this diet, there is no lack of nutrients at all.
The one thing that one will lack before (other) nutrients, is energy.
So, also regarding energy, fruits are much better than vegetables and vegetable fruits.
And we certainly dont need an alternative for fruits.
There are so many delicious fruits.
they don't deserve the discredit you are giving them.
I dont discredit carrots.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=986&hilit=carrots
Im saying that fruits are better than veggies.
And on this diet, fruits are also better than carrots because they supply you with more energy.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby overkees » Wed 28 Nov 2012 11:51

But the whole point in general is: Why are fruits SO MUCH better?
I already admitted in the topic title that fruits are healthier it isn't about that for crying out loud. The discussion is going nowhere with all the side tracks.

The whole point is that I really really enjoy these things (carrot juice) and I know others with me (my girlfriend also does 100% raw diet and she really enjoys veggies too). I'm trying to shed some light on them and give them some more attention. Because the wai diet only looks at fruits and sometimes people don't find that satisfactory enough and too restrictive. There are also very very little recepies when it comes to the wai diet. And you can't have any social dinners anymore. Allowing some vegetables (and we could provide good suited veggies) adds a whole lot more options and fun to the diet.

The other thing this is about is that I think that given that the diet doesn't contain addictive substances. You should go by taste to know what is best for your body. And thinking in taste rather than fruits results in making your body a better nutrient picking device than depending on dietary guideline amounts. There is a reason I am so wild about carrot juice.And of course this is a matter of opinion and there can be no research done or will be no research available to proof my point. Then you begin rationalizing and isolating all compounds and tell us it is not healthy while in fact your body might do better with this medicinal property that it chose itself.

You are way to rationalizing everything always. I think your body is too complex and knows what's best if you really listen to what results in the best feelings overall in the body. You might already think that drugs are fitting this description, but they do not as they will always create an after effect that is not so pleasant. The same goes for too much real antinutrients.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby RRM » Wed 28 Nov 2012 17:02

overkees wrote:the wai diet only looks at fruits and sometimes people don't find that satisfactory enough and too restrictive. There are also very very little recepies when it comes to the wai diet. And you can't have any social dinners anymore. Allowing some vegetables (and we could provide good suited veggies) adds a whole lot more options and fun to the diet.
Everybody is free to eat what (s)he wants.
If you want to eat veggies, go ahead.
The Wai diet is about the optimal diet. If you find it too strict, then change it to your likings.
But, we will not change the Wai diet principles, unless the change makes the diet more optimal, regarding health.
So, we dont change it to make it easier.
The basic concept of the Wai diet is the optimum diet, regarding health only.
And if you are strong enough to practise this diet, you can always find a way to still be social and have fun.
The longer one is on the strict Wai diet, the less recipes you need.
The food itself is your reward.
Every time im looking forward to drinking the next sip of OJ.
Every night im indulging on my raw fish and yolks, or beef.
Each time i taste banana and mango juice from the Versapers, its like im in heaven.
Screw variation. I want the real deal!
overkees wrote:The other thing this is about is that I think that given that the diet doesn't contain addictive substances. You should go by taste to know what is best for your body.
Addiction is a bitch.
Aside from the fact that you have not been on 100% Wai for a substantial period,
scents and memories alone may already suffice to trigger you in believing your body actually prefers some food.
The actual proof is in the pudding.
Please try a veggies-based diet for a month or two, and you will be able to distinguish its effects.
Then you begin rationalizing and isolating all compounds and tell us it is not healthy while in fact your body might do better with this medicinal property that it chose itself.
At least there is a rationale behind this diet; there is already enough religion in this world.
If you really want to find out whether its optimal for you, please try the strict Wai diet for a prolonged period of time without any cheating.
You are way to rationalizing everything always. I think your body is too complex and knows what's best if you really listen to what results in the best feelings overall in the body.
If we are not rational, we have to fall back on believes, traditions and hearsay etc,
and i dont think thats an option.
There are too many confusing elements for your body, regarding taste and appetite.
The only way to be actually able to tell the difference, is by trying the radical variations.
People sometimes need many years on a vegan diet to be able to conclude that its not optimal,
and people may feel perfectly healthy and fit on any diet. It takes a while.
In the beginning (the first 10 years) i too liked some grated carrots with my tomato-cucumber-avocado salad, but not anymore (since about 6 years or so).
In the beginning i liked ginger with my raw fish, but now it just hides the real taste for me.
It takes time.
The only way to make fair comparisons, is by comparing radical versions, for prolonged periods of time.
However, if you try raw veggies and animal food only for two months, very strictly,
im pretty sure you will feel the difference with the Wai diet already.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby Kasper » Thu 29 Nov 2012 00:19

RRM wrote:The Wai diet is about the optimal diet.
RRM wrote:
overkees wrote:haha! Still recommend that "healthy" wai salad with tomato and cucumber, RRM?
Its an option, for people who enjoy salads very much.
Of course, its better to eat fruits only, indeed.
Following your line of reasoning RRM, this doesn't make sense to me.
I think you should either include carrots, cucumber, tomatoes and avocadoes.
Or you should leave them all out. Otherwise it's just random.. right?
If I follow your line of reasoning carrot juice would be healthier than eating a wai salad.
Carrots, for example, contain 1.4% pectin (oranges up to 3.5%, also present in pumpkin), but in fruits this pectin is broken down during ripening,
by the enzymes pectinase and pectinesterase. Not in carrots.
'

Orange is a fruit that only ripens on the tree.
As oranges are picked unripe from the tree, pectin content in oranges (in the supermarket) may be higher than pectin content of carrots.
Even if the orange "looks" and "taste" ripe.
RRM wrote:The Wai diet is about the optimal diet.
Again, if the wai diet is about optimal diet, why do you include fruit that doesn't ripe anymore after being picked?
Seems to be that oranges should be excluded from the wai diet, except if the orange is picked ripe from the tree.

If I follow your line of reasoning.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby dime » Thu 29 Nov 2012 07:26

Kasper, I think we were talking about why theoretically are fruits better than veggies, i.e. if oranges were to ripen on the tree they would be much better than carrots.
It's about balancing, in your particular modern circumstances carrots may indeed be better than green unripe oranges (although it's hard to imagine that there's no good quality oranges), and I don't see why you shouldn't pick the carrots in that case. But theoretically in the ideal circumstances oranges are certainly more optimal.
Since we're anyway talking about juicing both oranges and carrots, pectin is irrelevant so I don't see the point in discussing it much.. theoretically it matters, in practice (we juice) it doesn't.
carrot juice would be healthier than eating a wai salad.
wai salad is tomatoes and cucumbers? I agree.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby overkees » Thu 29 Nov 2012 09:08

RRM wrote: The longer one is on the strict Wai diet, the less recipes you need.
The food itself is your reward.
Every time im looking forward to drinking the next sip of OJ.
Every night im indulging on my raw fish and yolks, or beef.
Each time i taste banana and mango juice from the Versapers, its like im in heaven.
Screw variation. I want the real deal!
Why mix fruits in the versapers? That is a recipe.
Why add OO to OJ? That is already a recipe.
Why add sugar to OJ? That is already a recipe.
Yolks with fish combined? --> recipe

Look, you are not totally eating the 'real deal' and are using taste enhancers (sugars and oil). The oil is very convenient, yes. But in itself it certainly is not the real deal. What you should do is take a spoon of oil and please give an honoust answer that you find this very appetizing.

I agree with you on that the real deal is better. But if I want to meet with people we often need to eat. He/She and I can both have our seperate meals but that isn't alot of fun. Therefore making a healthy salad, carefully selected from good veggies and fruits is an outcome that I have found is the perfect solution. Sometimes I also eat sashimi with friends and have soy sauce on the table for them. Or some pieces of ginger. Alot of people like it. That is a cool solution too. You could also go to a sushi restaurant or pick a good salad in another restaurant.
But if you only allow fruits, nobody is going to eat with you for dinner. And I can tell you there have been alot of occassions where this happened.
RRM wrote: The only way to make fair comparisons, is by comparing radical versions, for prolonged periods of time.
However, if you try raw veggies and animal food only for two months, very strictly,
im pretty sure you will feel the difference with the Wai diet already.
That's totally not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you go by taste only, certain vegetables can be a large help to achieve better health states. Not that veggies are better. You keep thinking this for some kind of reason. Comparing what is better for 2 months. It's totally missing the point.
You said you liked grated carrots in the first 10 years. And ginger. Then maybe it was what your body needed and asked for. Now that you are in a much better health position you don't like it anymore, because your body doesn't need it anymore. That's what I'm talking about. It's not about eating a theoretically optimal diet. It is about listening to what the body needs and get away from the addictive substances. The taste of certain things, or the better taste of something else tells you if you need a certain component of it that is good for you. That's my whole point.
I liked bananas alot. Now I don't feel like eating 'm at the moment. This means that my body prefers other tastes and therefore other substances. I'm totally crazy about carrots now. I believe this is for a reason. (However, it's getting less good than it was right now (still very nice though) and I drink more OJ again).

The point is that you don't need to say this and that is best and ultimate, while in reality you only should go by taste and let the body deside if it is good or not. Not eat something because of it's nutrients. That is what I did alot on wai. Adapting till I reached my nutrients. Eating 10 yolks a day that I didn't like at all. I like a maximum of 4 yolks in one setting and only eat it twice or thrice a week. This is what's it's all about. The guidelines of the wai diet are way to strict to really listen to the body, which I think is very important.

So yes, maybe in a perfect health the wai diet is the most optimal diet. But there are so many buts and ifs and I think you can judge much better by taste.

And even if you are eating french fries, or baked chicken legs. If you are really judging that by taste you will find that it tastes dead. It tastes afwul. You only think it tastes nice because it's addictive. If I eat baked or fried products I will get a tingling sensation in the back of my head. People eat it because of this slight tingling sensation. I don't believe anybody finds the taste very good. There is so much more deep tastes and flavours in raw foods. But people can't taste them because they are not listening to the body. But to what feels pleasant for the head and is addictive

The number one reason why I can finally control cravings now and stay raw (except for the butter, but I can control my butter consumption ;)) is because I only judge by taste now.
And yes, the last step is eliminating the raw cheese. I don't have huge cravings and can control it, but juding only by taste the cheese is not as good as the others. And I ntoice there is a tingling sensation. Well, because it's raw it doesn't bother me very much. I don't eat any yoghurt anymore (didn't eat much of it, but still).
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby Kasper » Thu 29 Nov 2012 13:43

You said you liked grated carrots in the first 10 years. And ginger. Then maybe it was what your body needed and asked for. Now that you are in a much better health position you don't like it anymore, because your body doesn't need it anymore. That's what I'm talking about. It's not about eating a theoretically optimal diet. It is about listening to what the body needs and get away from the addictive substances.
I totally agree.
Since we're anyway talking about juicing both oranges and carrots, pectin is irrelevant so I don't see the point in discussing it much.. theoretically it matters, in practice (we juice) it doesn't.
Still my argument holds. RRM says that fruit is better than vegetables because it ripens. But oranges are picked unripe from the tree, and are only decaying after that.
If you want an optimal diet, you need fruits that are fully ripened, not fruit that is fully decayed.

But RRM will not agree, as he finds decaying fruit tasting good (especially with a lot of sugar added), so it must be good for you.
That's what RRM have said over the years, if it taste good, it is raw, and it's without addictive substances, it's good for you.
But in this topic we find out, that this is not true, it's about what RRM find to taste good.
If RRM find it to taste good, than it is good for you, and everyone should eat that.
First, RRM liked a wai salad, so everyone should eat that.
Now RRM doesn't like wai salad anymore, so you better leave this wai salad out.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby Oscar » Thu 29 Nov 2012 14:32

'The Wai salad' doesn't really exist. You can have a combination of fruits and call that a 'salad' (or 'fruit salad' for that matter), and as long as that conforms to the Wai 'rules', I suppose it 'classifies' as a 'Wai salad'. Therefore tomato + cucumber isn't 'the Wai salad'. The Acne Sample Diet lists any combination of an avocado/tomato/cucumber salad as one of the diet options (with optional chives), but it doesn't mean there is only one 'Wai salad'. :)
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby RRM » Thu 29 Nov 2012 16:52

Kasper wrote: Following your line of reasoning RRM, this doesn't make sense to me.
I think you should either include carrots, cucumber, tomatoes and avocadoes.
Or you should leave them all out. Otherwise it's just random.. right?
If I follow your line of reasoning carrot juice would be healthier than eating a wai salad.
The Wai diet is fruits and animal foods (including avocado).
Tomatoes and cucumber (and bell peppers) are vegetable fruits, so officially not included / recommended, but because they are low in anti-nutrients (as opposed to raw zucchini, eggplant) not excluded either.
Carrots are not fruits, not vegetable-fruits, but roots, so officially excluded, but not in practise, because of their relatively low anti-nutrients levels.
Avocadoes are fruits. Fruits are included, though not all fruits, such as lemons and grapefruit. (and many unedible fruits)
Berries may be included (strawberries), or not (many).
Random?
Sure, and not really. (pick your pick)
You dont like it? Eat whatever you want.
Carrots, for example, contain 1.4% pectin (oranges up to 3.5%, also present in pumpkin), but in fruits this pectin is broken down during ripening,
by the enzymes pectinase and pectinesterase. Not in carrots.
'
Orange is a fruit that only ripens on the tree.
Officially? Yes.
In practise? No.
You can ask any fruit dealer.
As oranges are picked unripe from the tree, pectin content in oranges (in the supermarket) may be higher than pectin content of carrots.
Even if the orange "looks" and "taste" ripe.
We advise against eating unripe fruits.
If the fruit tastes ripe to me, its ripe.
RRM wrote:The Wai diet is about the optimal diet.
Again, if the wai diet is about optimal diet, why do you include fruit that doesn't ripe anymore after being picked?
Seems to be that oranges should be excluded from the wai diet, except if the orange is picked ripe from the tree.
If I follow your line of reasoning.
Why should i exclude fruits that are perfectly ripe?
Not my line of reasoning.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby RRM » Thu 29 Nov 2012 17:12

overkees wrote:Look, you are not totally eating the 'real deal' and are using taste enhancers (sugars and oil).
Oil a taste enhancer?
I add it to prevent acid reflux.
The oil forms a thin coating that protects the stomach lining.
Not the real deal?
Its the Wai diet.
But if I want to meet with people we often need to eat. He/She and I can both have our seperate meals but that isn't alot of fun.
Then go to a japanese restaurant and both have sashimi.
I never had less fun by eating something different than my dining partner though.
Therefore making a healthy salad, carefully selected from good veggies and fruits is an outcome that I have found is the perfect solution.
Sure, you can do that.

But if you only allow fruits, nobody is going to eat with you for dinner.
Who says only fruits are allowed?
Sashimi is fine, raw beef is fine.
RRM wrote:certain vegetables can be a large help to achieve better health states.
If you think so, then do so.
Its just not Wai.
Why is that a problem?
Then maybe it was what your body needed and asked for. Now that you are in a much better health position you don't like it anymore, because your body doesn't need it anymore. That's what I'm talking about.
Ha ha, no it was only because i was so used to all those aggressive tastes,
that it took a long time before i could truly distinguish between good and optimal.
It's not about eating a theoretically optimal diet. It is about listening to what the body needs and get away from the addictive substances.
And you are not even close to that.
in reality you only should go by taste and let the body deside if it is good or not.
I think that diet is called instinctive eating.
The guidelines of the wai diet are way to strict
Too strict for you, maybe.
to really listen to the body, which I think is very important.
Its actually the opposite: only when you follow the very strict rules for 100%, you will eventually be able to listen properly.
IAnd even if you are eating french fries, or baked chicken legs. If you are really judging that by taste you will find that it tastes dead.
Not everybody will agree.
Most people will not.
Only after consuming enough raw foods, you may feel that way.
Get it?
Its the time and strictness to lets you be a better judge.
Want to be a better judge?
Be stricter!
I don't believe anybody finds the taste very good.
Many people believe differently.
Equally so as you believe that some raw veggies taste good.
There is so much more deep tastes and flavours in raw foods. But people can't taste them because they are not listening to the body.
They cannot taste it because of what they are accustomed to.
You can tell them to listen, but they cannot hear.
The same goes for you.
I can tell you to listen, but you cannot hear.
For that you need to be on the strict diet first, for a long enough period.
the last step is eliminating the raw cheese.
No, that is one of the first steps...
You are not even close to the last step.
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Re: Why are fruits better than veggies?

Postby RRM » Thu 29 Nov 2012 17:14

Kasper wrote:oranges are picked unripe from the tree, and are only decaying after that.
Ha ha, your point is that we never eat ripe oranges! :)

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