ketogenic diet

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panacea
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ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

a ketogenic diet is one which is very low in carbs. you can eat more carbs to accommodate fluctuating exercise activity, but generally a ketogenic diet is an extremely low carb, adequate protein, and high fat diet.

The diet allows the body to burn fats as its primary fuel rather than carbohydrates. It can take days, weeks, or months for a body to adjust to a ketogenic diet. Usually it takes weeks.

I now believe a ketogenic diet is the "healthiest" diet, far surpassing wai warrior or any other diet regimen. It's important to note that a ketogenic diet can include 100% wai foods, it is a subtle but important difference in the types of energy you intake, more fat instead of carbs.

The main reasons a ketogenic diet is superior, and healthier, than any other diet regimen is that: Ketogenic food sources are easily attainable, yet hard to adhere to at first. Fruits, for example, are seasonal, can be expensive, hard to tell if ripe at all times, etc. Fatty food sources, are much more stable, usually more affordable, and definitely much easier to tell if they're spoiled or ready to eat.

The body increases anti oxidant production during ketosis, and decreases reactive oxidant species production as a byproduct of mitochondrial action. In a nutshell, it increases your bodies ability to fight free radicals, while at the same time reducing free radical production in the first place.

During ketosis, blood vessels dilate by an average of 26%, especially in the brain. Higher blood flow tends to mean higher intellectual abilities.. aka you get smarter, as well as warmer.

Glucose stores are very minimal, or finite, compared to fat stores. During ketosis, your mood levels, blood sugar levels, energy levels, etc are steadier and more flat lined even if you skip some meals, because your body is burning stored up fat in your body as fuel, rather than relying on glucose which you need to constantly/tirelessly and sometimes regimen-tally keep feeding yourself on a schedule.

Brain diseases, like Alzheimers, epileptic seizures, and diabetes are all improved or cured by a ketogenic diet.

While the adaptation period to a ketogenic diet (usually 1-2 weeks) can be difficult, there is no known long term downside or negative to a ketogenic diet. It's often sourced that it increases acid levels of the blood due to increased ketone body production, but if all known markers for health and athletic and mental performance get better or more stable on such a diet, it is completely irrelevant if blood acid levels slightly elevate other than being a trivial side effect, which may be good or bad. It's noted that it puts stress on the body that the blood is more acidic, but this in-of-itself is an idiotic argument, since gravity puts necessary stress on the body to allow us to function within it, and in space, astronauts have to artificially induce this stress to remain healthy and functional. Stress is not a universally bad thing, only when you can prove that exact kind of stress connects to a bad outcome is it a bad thing. In short, there is nothing but fear mongering out there to prevent you from liking the idea of a ketogenic diet.

Investigate, all you have to lose is ignorance.
Novidez
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Novidez »

Wasn't JeffC who did a diet like this? viewtopic.php?t=3549
panacea wrote:During ketosis, blood vessels dilate by an average of 26%, especially in the brain. Higher blood flow tends to mean higher intellectual abilities.. aka you get smarter, as well as warmer.
JeffC said something interesting like "I feel better mentally/emotionally. Much more tranquil, peaceful, clear. I think I'm understanding better what they mean by 'brain fog.' Ideas seem more clear, and I seem to take action more readily."

It kinda sucks that I was withdrawing Prozac and I started Wai at the same time... I have been experiencing brain fog lately. Regarding my body, everything seems to be ok, I feel great and I am sleeping like I never have slept before. But when I have to do some task, I am very slow, forgetful, sluggish, I can't remember things easily, even my speech is very sloppy now (before starting Wai (ie, no/almost no sugar at all / withdrawing Prozac I was remembering things much faster and had a speech way smoother).
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

His diet is very similar, but unless he had some special fatty foods/oils that allowed him to increase his carb intake, he was most likely not in ketosis, or jumping in and out of it so often that he never stayed in it for any length of time. It's perfectly okay to do it that way, but the ketosis benefits won't really manifest.

Generally, more than 50g of carbs a day makes you exit ketosis.
Coconut oil can increase your ketone body count even if you eat more than about 50 g of carb a day, allowing you to stay in ketosis.
Exercise can create an energy demand that can be temporarily satiated with carbs, without taking you out of ketosis.
Some sources say fiber along with carbs can prevent carbs from affecting ketosis, so you can do carbs minus fiber for net carbs, and as long as you are below 50 g net carbs, you'll stay in ketosis.

However, even if he had 95% "keto diet days", if 5% of his days were more than 50 g net carbs, without exercise to sufficiently compensate, then he would exit ketosis, and take a week or more to re-enter it, so you kind of have to either be fasting or purposefully diet a certain way to remain in ketosis.
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

Also, my statistic of 26% was wrong, I had recalled incorrectly that information, it's actually a 39% increase in blood vessel dilation.
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

In the context of buteyko, people with 90 s CP or more, are believed to have the ability to immediately (within the same day) transition to a high ketone diet (digest fats), which is why they can survive without food much easier and longer than a normal person. It is probably a default high-health human ability to switch back and forth quickly between carb and fat fuels, but is lost due to habitual modern lifestyle creature comforts. (If you were a jungle-man, it would be part of your normal abilities to go without food, switch to ketosis, and not take a whole week to do so)
Kasper
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Kasper »

I have not the knowledge to really judge this, maybe RRM understand this more, but here are some doubts:

- glucose oxidation result in more CO2 than fatty acid oxidation. Therefore, given that breathing rate and overall metabolic rate stays the same, there will be less CO2 in your blood and tissues on such a high fat diet. Some people argue that higher CO2 levels leads to better overall health.
- on a practical note, I think it is hard to make such a diet taste good, especially when you are eating raw. I don't like the taste of raw animal fat. I think raw dairy (maybe fermented to reduce the sugars), tastes really good in my opinion, but this is excluded on the wai diet. Eating lots of nuts may be an option, but this is hard to digest, and could result in too much omega-6. Eating plant based oils, like coconut oil and olive oil, is not bad, but those oils don't provide vitamins and minerals. If you can eat lots of raw egg yolks, I think it is possible. Personally, I don't like eating much raw egg yolks.

I think, on a non-raw diet, it is all much easier. Eating vegetables cooked in lots of coconut oil is delicious, you can make meat/fish/vegetable broths, and add egg yolks to those soups. But I think it is in general very hard on a raw diet.
Ketogenic food sources are easily attainable, yet hard to adhere to at first. Fruits, for example, are seasonal, can be expensive, hard to tell if ripe at all times, etc. Fatty food sources, are much more stable, usually more affordable, and definitely much easier to tell if they're spoiled or ready to eat.
I agree with this. That is also one reason I include potatoes in my diet. They are cheap, nutrient rich, high calorie, and easy to get all year round. However, I'm not saying that potatoes are healthier.
During ketosis, blood vessels dilate by an average of 26%, especially in the brain. Higher blood flow tends to mean higher intellectual abilities.. aka you get smarter, as well as warmer.
Why do the blood vessel dilate? Playing the devil's advocate, blood vessels also dilate under inflammation, but that is no reason to trigger inflammation 24/7.
Glucose stores are very minimal, or finite, compared to fat stores. During ketosis, your mood levels, blood sugar levels, energy levels, etc are steadier and more flat lined even if you skip some meals, because your body is burning stored up fat in your body as fuel, rather than relying on glucose which you need to constantly/tirelessly and sometimes regimen-tally keep feeding yourself on a schedule.
I feel my energy level is high and stable on high carb-low fat diet, eating 3 big meals a day (and some snacks in between). After eating a big meal, maybe my energy level drops a bit for 10 min., but after that I feel great. This is especially true after breakfast, in the afternoon and evening, I don't really notice any energy drop.

I don't do intermittement fasting, but RRM and Oscar do, and it seems that they are in quite good health and energy levels, without regimen-tally feeding themselves on schedule.
Novidez
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Novidez »

I don't know if you had read this thread, but I thought about bringing it here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1076
(In case you had already read it, I'm sorry, I was trying to be helpful)
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

ketogenic diet means less volume of food, less big meals necessary, and does not increase breathing as much due to this, it also has a lower digestion load on the body, which also prevents an increase in breathing, so no - breathing, which is the main factor in CO2 control, is able to maintain higher CP on a ketogenic diet. If the normal metabolism on a ketogenic diet doesn't produce as much CO2 per second as a high carb diet, then it's simple - don't breathe as much, and you will have no problem doing so, since the brains CO2 limit has not changed...

A high fat diet is very unpopular, so yes, it is culturally not a delicious diet. Some people that have done it for awhile think it tastes great (cooked), there is almost no data I can find on raw keto, although I agree it's not as good a high carb diet in terms of taste, however, the cravings for those tasty foods go down on a ketogenic diet, so the issue becomes less relevant. This is actually one of the most attractive benefits for me, because while wai tastes better, the desire for processed food when I smell a bakery, or restaurant, is still there, that is decreased significantly when your brain energy needs are leveled out (like having a constant steady supply of energy instead of a rollercoaster). It's also much easier on the lifestyle. Wai is only similar if you have the time, dedication, and means to sip some OJ about every 5 minutes in order to artificially induce a "leveled" energy supply. That's not a real solution to anyone except on paper, or if you have no job, kids, etc.

It should be easy to get a lot of our fat needs from raw salmon, eggs, and beef or other animal foods - just dont order 90% lean cuts of beef, try 70% lean. In my initial research, not much volume of fat is needed for an entire day, since fat is much more energy dense (since it has less water) than carbs. In a sense, without having to use a juicer to remove fiber, it's much easier to get your energy needs in a day by eating a lot of fat, since it stores better as coconut or olive oil (compared to fresh juice which goes bad relatively quickly), and cant be cheaply done by the manufacturer without destroying most benefits.

Why do blood vessels dilate in ketosis, good question, I don't know - but you don't know either, so it seems premature to suggest it's because there's more inflammation, without even having a clue.. There's many other (healthy) reasons blood vessels dilate, such as higher CP, or higher body temps (which does happen on keto).

Excitingly, most of these keto benefits I've read about seem to be from a cooked keto diet, I can't wait to see what a raw keto diet does. In my mind, it's shooting yourself in the foot to eat a cooked keto diet for better taste.

Some people on a keto diet don't notice their energy fluctuations on their carb diets until they reflect in retrospect on the differences between the two. Some people say they eat a keto diet sheerly for the mental acuity benefits of being able to stay sharp from waking to sleeping, rather than hitting tiredness at around 3-5 pm. This is comparing a cooked non-wai diets, to cooked keto diets however, the differences between raw wai and raw keto, may very well be less drastic, at least I suspect so, for obvious reason that they are both closer to healthy eating habits.

@Novidez, thanks for that thread, it's very interesting what RRM said about muscle turnover in aging. I don't have a scientific background, but it seems like continually breaking down muscle tissue and rebuilding it is a lot like autophagy, which has all of the sudden become an anti-aging fad around here. I wish there was more I could find on the net about all of that.
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Oscar
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Oscar »

panacea wrote:...it seems like continually breaking down muscle tissue and rebuilding it is a lot like autophagy...
Not really. The purpose of autophagy is to limit cell renewal as much as possible, by keeping cells clean.
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

@Oscar
I was very new to ketosis at the time of this post, there are even body builders who are on a ketogenic diet, it appears muscle tissue doesn't continually break down as RRM said, a body in ketosis uses fat not muscle tissue for energy, and gets other nutrients from a nutritional ketogenic diet, only in long term fasting does muscle tissue break down in a net loss. Autophagy is indeed increased during ketosis, as autophagy is directly tied to insulin levels, and you can go longer between meals on a ketogenic diet without breaking down muscle (by using internal fat for fuel). Ketosis is like a starvation mode for the body, where it switches to burning stored up fat in your body, except you provide it with the nutrients and fat it needs externally (if you aren't trying to lose weight), or more if you're trying to bulk up. It's like calorie restriction, intermittent fasting, etc, but instead of rollercoastering your body from having tons of carbs/sugars then none, and going into wild varying states of tiredness, alertness, or keto-adaptation, you just stay in ketosis on a ketogenic diet.

Unfortunately, most people seem to eat things like fried bacon/eggs, lots of vegetables (usually cooked), high fiber, lots of oils that are not good in high amounts in my opinion, lots of nuts, etc. on a ketogenic diet, as they try to hold on to remnants of a cooked/SAD diet. While that does put you into ketosis, I think it brings a high digestive load with it. A raw and wai ketogenic diet is probably far superior (raw fish, raw egg yolks, raw 70% lean beef or tallow, coconut oil in small amounts, olive oil smaller amounts, spring water, low carb berries in small amounts, etc.) Amazingly, I can't find anyone doing it this way online, there are only vegan ketogenic dieters, who obviously get a ton of digestive load from vegetables, high fiber, and all their fat from nuts and oils (which is too much in my opinion, need some from animal sources).
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Aytundra
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Aytundra »

@ Panacea
are you planning to become a wai-ketogenic dieter?
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

@Aytundra
yes that's the plan, I've been successfully doing a ketogenic diet for the past 8 days (maybe more, I can't remember when I started), which is a long time for me. The most important thing is that I have no uncontrollable cravings for carbs/caffiene/etc. Before this diet, I was drinking more than 2 litres of soda a day, and only fast food junk and chocolate milk (very unhealthy).

I have very low powers of will, most likely due to the fact that I'm a hermit, and my sources of pleasure mainly come from the internet, videogames, movies (all on computer), and food, so there is not much to distract me.

However, the ketogenic diet, keeps you very satiated.
I've had lots of mood swings, and bodily feeling swings, over the past 8 days. Because I've been eating cooked keto (raw wai keto was too hard cold turkey), I think it's taking longer to fully keto-adapt. Once I'm fully keto-adapted, I'll immediately begin raw wai keto again, since I won't have as much of a leap to make from cooked keto.

Even on cooked keto (bacon, eggs, cheese, flavored but 0 carb water, sea salt, pepper, and coconut/olive oils) it's easy to maintain, I don't feel like I'm lacking any food or indulgences, like I did before. Going to the grocery store, smelling the bakery section when they just put out donuts and things, it smells delicious, but it doesn't make me want to try any. It's pretty cool!
Since I had gained a little weight (not much), a lot of my daily energy seems to be coming from internal fat, which is good, since I don't particularly like coconut oil yet. It's not that it's bad tasting, it just seems like I don't have any desire/craving to eat it, but I have intense cravings for protein, but they come and go, which is another cool thing I'm noticing, I can tell when I'm craving a high fat (but not pure fat) meal, such as heavy whipping cream, or full fat cheese, or protein (bacon), or what seems like protein+fat (eggs, which I add cream to).

For my oral fixation, since I was used to sipping soda all day long, I use flavored water, its carbonated but with fruit flavors, tastes amazing, but no carbs/sugar. I hated the taste of plain water when I started, slowly it's getting to be more tolerable even for plain spring water.

On raw wai keto of course, since I'm sedentary, I will need much less water. Hopefully on raw wai keto, I'll feel energetic enough to exercise. There are days on this keto diet, where I've already done so much more activity in a day than I would before. I've also noticed a lot less itching, which I used to get during the day at random times, or when sleeping. Seems like my body in general loves it, after eating like I was on the road to diabetes for my entire life, a switch was dearly needed.. I've also indeed noticed much more stable energy levels. When I get tired, as I often do, since I stay up way too long habitually watching movies or playing games (20 hours or more, long time for me), I feel it come on, and if I eat some fat (at that time I actually will eat coconut oil) I get awake again. If I do that though, I sleep forever. But I notice I wake up 3-4 times, which means I should get up the first time, but don't because I work from home so nothing makes me. Before this diet, I also worked from home, and my days and nights were completely random. This diet has somehow made me 90% of the time align my days and nights more correctly (but not perfect as with other people who work), even though I'm always indoors with very little sunlight coming in.. Just things I've noticed :)
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

During the first 5 days, I had pains in random spots each day. Early on it was headaches, eyes felt like their muscles had been worked out even upon waking, neck pain, back pain, later I got upper thigh and leg pain, lower back pain, arm pains, etc. One by one they would stop and another would appear, yesterday all I got was a mild headache upon waking and eye pain. Today, even though I slept a very very long time, no pain at all, just 10% of the eye soreness upon waking as before, so it seems like it's going in a good direction. I sit in a chair all day long, before it was absolute hell by the end of the day, now I don't even notice it. I do occasionally feel an urge, almost like I'm being carried out of my chair, to walk around or go outside, it is kind of annoying how strong the urges are.
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

Actually I just checked, I've been on the diet for at least 10 days, maybe 11-12
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RRM
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by RRM »

panacea wrote: it appears muscle tissue doesn't continually break down as RRM said
Of course they do. All organs do. Cell renewal is a 24/7 process.
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