ketogenic diet

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panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

I was referring to the linked post in this topic by Novidez in which you responded to keto dog, basically saying that a ketogenic diet is similar to fasting in that it is protein-wasting (muscle tissue wasting or accelerated aging)
I consider this an oversimplficiation, taking into consideration only the keto adapatation phase, at some point, it comes into what I'd consider 'normality', since more good is done than harm across the whole body, and nobody is going to die of old age because their muscle tissues are renewing slightly more often, especially if they aren't body builders.

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One example of a source (http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/I ... ld1996.pdf) stating that across the entire body, glucose need is reduced when keto-adapted, so excess protein wasting would only be momentarily true in times of high intensity muscle use, not all day long, which is trivial. It states that on the whole, there's a protein sparing effect, and a fat burning effect, of keto diets, while high carb has a protein sparing, and fat sparing effect.

Also, they state:
"Most tissues of the body can use FFA for fuel if it is available. This includes skeletal
muscle, the heart, and most organs. However, there are other tissues such as the brain, red
blood cells, the renal medulla, bone marrow and Type II muscle fibers which cannot use FFA and
require glucose (2)."

Which is in direct contradiction to your oversimplification saying muscles can't use FFA in keto dogs post

"By the third day of ketosis, all of the non-protein fuel is derived from the oxidation of FFA
and ketones (12,13). As ketosis develops, most tissues which can use ketones for fuel will stop
using them to a significant degree by the third week (7,9). This decrease in ketone utilization
occurs due to a down regulation of the enzymes responsible for ketone use and occurs in all
tissues except the brain (7). After three weeks, most tissues will meet their energy requirements
almost exclusively through the breakdown of FFA (9). This is thought to be an adaptation to
ensure adequate ketone levels for the brain."

From the same link

"Total energy requirements = glucose + FFA
Therefore if energy requirements stay the same, a decrease in the use of glucose will
increase the use of FFA for fuel. By corollary, an increase in the body's ability to use FFA for fuel
will decrease the need for glucose by the body. This relationship between glucose and FFA was
termed the glucose-FFA Cycle by Randle almost 30 years ago (17,18)."

"Protein is slightly less regulated (16). When protein intake goes up, protein oxidation will
also go up to some degree. By the same token, if protein intake drops, the body will use less
protein for fuel. This is an attempt to maintain body protein stores at constant levels."

Not much is known about ketosis in the general population unless you specialize in it, I consider it an overlooked miracle cure for the modern lifestyle, chiefly because, and I'm experiencing this myself, it quickly removes cravings for junk food, and I consider beating cravings the most important factor for actually being able to stick to a healthier diet. I admit that eating fruit all day like apes or monkeys out of the jungle, with occasional insects or animal organs/meat, resulting in a high carb wai diet, would be equal or superior to keto, the problem is the time and unavailability of that quality of food in 99% of modern peoples cases. You would have to eat small meals quite often to really get an equally stable energy level, they always need to be somewhat ripe, you have to peel, process, juice, etc, and the cost. I don't know if you've ever been to the US, but it's just not practical here unless you're a millionaire and have someone prepare and find food for you each day.
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

I found this interesting, that glucose is recycled better on keto

"How much carbohydrate per day is needed to sustain the body?

When carbohydrate is removed from the diet, the body undergoes at least three major
adaptations to conserve what little glucose and protein it does have (5). The primary adaptation
is an overall shift in fuel utilization from glucose to FFA in most tissues, as discussed in the
previous section (5,6). This shift spares what little glucose is available to fuel the brain.
The second adaptation occurs in the leukocytes, erythrocytes and bone marrow which
continue to use glucose (6). To prevent a depletion of available glucose stores, these tissues
break down glucose partially to lactate and pyruvate which go to the liver and are recycled back
to glucose again (5,6). Thus there is no net loss of glucose in the body from these tissues and they
can be ignored in terms of the body’s carbohydrate requirements.
The third, and probably the most important, adaptation, occurs in the brain, which shifts
from using solely carbohydrate for fuel to deriving up to 75% of its energy requirements from
ketones by the third week of sustained ketosis. (5,6,26) As the brain is the only tissue that
continues to deplete glucose in the body, it is all we need concern ourselves with in terms of daily
carbohydrate requirements."
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

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panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

Also, it should be noted that while it's possible to bulk up and/or be a bodybuilder on a ketogenic diet, and that it's actually easier to do than when on a low carb high fat diet (but not quite keto, which lots of bodybuilders stupidly do), it's harder than bulking up on a high carb diet.

I don't consider a bulky or muscular look healthy, I consider it an abnormality like obesity. My personal beliefs are humans are semi-aquatic apes, designed for aerobics/cardio, ideally with very high endurance and strength like monkeys have, despite their seemingly non-bulky appearance.

So for example, the leftmost picture in this example (ignoring hairstyle) has highest survival ability (therefore most adapted state through history)
You can still make your body believe you are fasting ,like in caloric restriction, without caloric restriction, using ketosis. Ketosis is probably a loophole to accelerated aging and early death since, in times of abundance of carbs (food), the body is programmed to wither and die, to make room for the newly produced baby boom. In times of starvation, the body does all it can to survive and prolong lifespan, in the chance that you can still procreate and support the species from extinction.

Seems cruel, but that's how nature works, and why most animals aren't immortal.

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RRM
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by RRM »

panacea wrote:I found this interesting, that glucose is recycled better on keto
I think it is unavoidable.
The body always adapts as much as it can and is required.
ketosis ... I consider it an overlooked miracle cure for the modern lifestyle
For which 'modern lifestyle disease' is it a cure?
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

modern lifestyle disease is the combined disease of early onset of heart attacks, diabetes, etc. All major risk factors are increased and longevity parameters are shortened by a poor diet, exercise and healthy lifestyle somewhat can reduce a poor diets harmful effects, but it still remains true. A good diet has the opposite effect.. Probably the best diet for our body is one that allows us to stay keto-adapted for most of our adult lives, since beyond the induction period of 3 weeks or less (less time than that to reduce cravings), there's only one downside - limited carbs, and so many benefits, including not craving carbs.
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Aytundra
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Aytundra »

@ panacea
If you are going to continue doing a ketogenic diet, can you track a few parameters for me?
- I am just curious what happens when one does not eat carbs, never really known anyone that did keto before.
a) cavities, teeth/health, if any prior and during ketogenic diet.
b) acid taste, if any left in the mouth, or none, or some, or all the times, post eating your meal, immediately, 1 hours, few hours later, half day, next day, (not meaning it to be a chore, only like if you remember to note it down, don't have to be specific, if you never get that taste, good for you).
c) teeth cleaning habits if any, or none, or random, or sometime, or all the time, or don't care...etc.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

no acid taste yet
I recently discovered my bacon had been cured with sugar, I don't think it was enough to take me out of keto adaptation process, but it wasnt helping, so I found bacon not cured with sugar, and I had more intense keto adaptation symptoms the past 3 days. No acid taste though.
I've noticed digestion speed seems increased after taking coconut oil, I used to eat coconut oil and didnt have that effect before keto. Only caffiene was a good laxative for me, coconut oil now does the same similar thing (no more caffiene).
Strangely even though my stools are lighter than normal color, signifying to me that their transit was hurried, there is no mess at all left on my body (no need for toilet paper) 95% of the time, even on a cooked keto diet, which is rare for me as all cooked diets have always left my digestion requiring tp (so this is a good sign I think).

For my mouth, I actually don't really take care of it that well, last I went to dentist was forever ago and I had signs of incoming cavities, but none yet. My teeth are in pretty bad shape from all my sodia and pre-keto diet. However I've noticed less of a coating on my tongue, and less foul breath, on keto. Probably because I drink just flavored water or salt water or spring water now, instead of soda, but the non-sugar foods also helps. I can see no reason at all keto isn't pro-teeth and gum health.
The only reason not to keto is if you're still growing (such as a child) as it may, and it's not even confirmed, but may stifle growth. I thought similar bad things about reproduction, but it turns out sexual drive and fertility are enhanced on keto.

The side effects I've had include muscle cramps (usually after sleeping because thats the longest point i've gone without water intake)
Muscle aches/body aches (come at random times but usually sea salt helps)
Persistent headaches, not strong pain, I can actually still think pretty clearly which is amazing to me, while I'm in these long keto-headaches. Sea salt, water, and sometimes protein help, but not if I've been awake too long. I think this is partially a side effect of being able to stay awake much longer than I used to, and I lose track of time, until I get a headache telling me to refill electrolytes and sleep. It's more like a persistent "annoyance" slowly wearing me down until I go to sleep because I want it to stop, rather than my body actually feels tired. I used to feel tired all over before I'd sleep, and urinate a lot closer to my maximum awake time, now it's mostly my head.
What I find most impressive is I can stay awake longer on keto, with 0 caffiene, and even 0 coconut oil that day, than with constant soda caffiene on non-keto (ive never had coffee though). Also, coconut oil will sometimes give me a jolt of energy after a delayed time to help me stay awake longer, but I don't like doing that.

Keep in mind im completely sedentary, basically walking between 3 rooms, sitting in an office chair, and sleeping horizontal.

The most amazing benefit seems subtle but it's profound. I tried to beat addiction to food for something like 6-7 years, failed every day in my battle, with only 3-7 day success runs, which were pure hell. On this diet I've gone for about 14-16 days or something by now, maybe more, and I still don't have cravings. I tested myself by talking with someone about carb foods like pizza, etc, and while i have fond memories of that food, there's just nothing in my body compelling me to eat it anymore, even when i'm starving all I want is more bacon, eggs, fat, water, jello, etc. The grocery store, walking down candy aisles and bakery section is painless, driving past fast food, painless. I used to be afraid of these places because of my addiction.
The jello is mostly for a constant oral fixation (like smoking) because I used to always drink soda or snack, and now even though I drink water a lot, I can't drink it that much to feel like my stomach is full because I don't want that much, so gelatin replaces it, but my desire for jello is slowly decreasing too.
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

Oh, another amazing effect, the thing that tells me when to eat now is my HEAD/brain not my gut/stomach. I used to get strong desires, originating from my gut area, to eat carbs before the keto diet, now I just feel weak, headache, or annoyed in my head when I need to eat again (I get immersed in my work and games so I go too long even on keto, without eating, sometimes)

I've also noticed less stomach grumbles (but it still happens), a lighter feeling, NO bloating ever, gas is odorless and less (unless tons of cooked bacon all at once, then maybe, but still nothing compared to carb foods), etc.

In general I just feel better, every week it seems to improve a lot
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

Also, as I posted a while back, before keto diet I was drinking a lot of chocolate milk, now I still eat natural full fat cheese, but by body tells me really well when I've had enough, and I don't even drink full fat milk, as it seems to have a few carbs, and even a few carbs can induce cravings for those few carbs again, and since I know I'd gorge, I dont eat them at all. Everything I eat now has to basically say 0 or <1 g of carb per serving
Most foods that say 0, can still have some carb like 0.5 or something, AFAIK, but it all doesnt add up to over 20 g I suspect, and especially not 50 g a day, which is the upper threshold of ketosis
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

There are atkins diet candies in the store, and some regular candies, that say they have like 1g, 2g, 3g, or 0 g net carbs, they subtract sugar alcohols and fiber. I don't believe in this. I don't believe in fiber (some may be totally fine, but I don't seek it out). I'm all about total carbs, since I know I can rely on that, and keto meters, or keto stix, which measure ketone levels in blood or urine, are useless. Even ketone breath meters are somewhat useless. The only real way to know you're in keto is to count carbs.

Also, even if it turns out the net carb candies keep you in keto, their nutrition sucks.
panacea
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Ketosis

Post by panacea »

My 2 cents is that a raw wai keto diet, gives you the most life expectancy, since it's basically the bodies starvation mode.
In my opinion, all the evidence linking calorie restriction to extended lifespan in rats or whatever, is probably linked to the inevitable increased degree of ketogenic metabolism that happens because of a lack of carbs.
We all have some ketone activity even on high carb, the less calories, the more ketogenic activity. Calorie restriction (total restriction) such as fasting, quickly induces high ketogenic state, called ketosis.

It is not too much of a stretch to say that nutritional ketosis, which can be maintened until you die, would be ideal for lifespan..

There is so much more than just the lifespan number though, to get from a keto diet. The reason I do it isn't to live a little longer, who cares about my old age years when I'm withering away. I care about being mentally sharp, and not sickly, that's it. Keto helps me with that.
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RRM
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by RRM »

panacea wrote:
RRM wrote:
panacea wrote:ketosis ... I consider it an overlooked miracle cure for the modern lifestyle
For which 'modern lifestyle disease' is it a cure?
... the combined disease of early onset of heart attacks, diabetes, etc.
How does ketosis cure diabetes?
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RRM
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Re: Life expectancy and Diet

Post by RRM »

panacea wrote:My 2 cents is that a raw wai keto diet, gives you the most life expectancy, since it's basically the bodies starvation mode.
The starvation mode triggers autophagy, increasing life expectancy.
In ketosis, most of your energy comes from ketone bodies instead of glucose. So, you may provide your body with the same amount of energy with the same frequency, thus never triggering autophagy.
Ketosis is not the starvation mode, but simply switching energy sources. Hence no increase in life expectancy.
panacea
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

RRM what you said makes no sense. If someone fasts to go into starvation mode, they go into ketosis, getting most of their energy from ketones and fat stores, not external carbs, because they're not eating. Nutritional ketosis is simply prolonging that state by eating mostly fats, rather than exhausting your bodies entire supply. So in the context of your body, you're still feeding it basically the same exact thing as when you're starving. Just because your starving doesn't mean the body doesn't get energy from somewhere.

It's the same thing, from that perspective, as starvation, except without the eventual result of death..
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