Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

[Aytundra]

[quote="Ray Peat from his "Coconut Oil" article http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/coconut-oil.shtml"]Some insects that have been studied have been found not to require the essential fatty acids. [14]* According to reviewers, hogs and humans have not been shown to require the "essential" fatty acids. [15] In vitro studies indicate that they are not required for human diploid cells to continue dividing in culture. [16] According to Guarnieri, [17] EFA-deficient animals don't die from their deficiency. The early studies showing "essentiality" of unsaturated fats, by producing skin problems and an increased metabolic rate, have been criticized [18] in the light of better nutritional information, e.g., pointing out that the diets might have been deficient in vitamin B6 and/or biotin. The similar skin condition produced by vitamin B6 deficiency was found to be improved by adding unsaturated fats to the diet. A fat-free liver extract cured the "EFA deficiency." I think it would be reasonable to investigate the question of the increased metabolic rate produced by a diet lacking unsaturated fats (which inhibit both thyroid function and protein metabolism) in relation to the biological changes that have been observed. Since diets rich in protein are known to increase the requirement for vitamin B6 [19] (which is a co-factor of transaminases, for example), the increased rate of energy production and improved digestibility of dietary protein on a diet lacking unsaturated fats would certainly make it reasonable to provide the experimental animals with increased amount of other nutrients. With increasing knowledge, the old experiments indicating the "essentiality" of certain oils have lost their ability to convince, and they haven't been replaced by new and meaningful demonstrations. In the present state of knowledge, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that the optional dietary level of the "essential fatty acids" might be close to zero, if other dietary factors were also optimized. The practical question, though, has to do with the dietary choices that can be made at the present time.[/quote]
Yes, I think Ray Peat really intends to promote "zero" essential fatty acids.

[Kasper]

Yes, he does believe it is optimal theoretically .....
But practically, of course, he doesn't believe that. For the reasons I said a couple of times already.

[Aytundra]

Yes, he does believe it is optimal theoretically .....
But practically, of course, he doesn't believe that. For the reasons I said a couple of times already.

Takes Kasper's Icepack, my brain is melting from thinking.
Thhannks for trying to explain.

I need a break and I need to study for exams.
See you 5 days later in the Peat Arena here?

[Kasper]

Okay, say we are in peat universe, then we would believe the following is true:

- It is healthy to eat some animal food
- It is healthy to eat some fat, probably at least 20 gram of fat, maybe more?
- It is healthy to limit PUFA as much as possible. At least less than 4 gram of PUFA a day.

Theoretically, you would want zero gram of PUFA.
But in practice, you want some PUFA, otherwise you would not eat animal food, and eat too little fat (every fat contains PUFA).

[Aytundra]

[quote="Citation/Source of Data (Thompson J., Manore M., Sheeshka J. (2007). Nutrition: a functional approach Cdn Edition. "Appendix A Nutrient Values of Foods; 'Values are obtained from the USDA Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, Release 16' " on page: A-A62. ISBN0-321-25294-2)"]
Nut & Oil & Polyunsaturated Fats (PUFA)
1.097 | 9.1 g (1 tbsp) | Nuts, almonds, dried, blanched
3.363 | 28.35 g (1 oz (24 whole kernels)) | Nuts, almonds, oil roast, blanched w/salt
5.695 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, beechnuts, dried
5.834 | 28.35 g (1 oz (6 -8 kernels)) | Nuts, brazilnuts, dried, unblanched
12.117 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, butternuts, dried
2.379 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, cashew nuts, raw
2.222 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, cashews, dry roasted w/salt
0.133 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, chestnuts, Chinese, dried
0.574 | 296 g (1 cup) | Nuts, coconut cream, canned (liquid expressed from grated meat)
0.005 | 240 g (1 cup) | Nuts, coconut water (liquid from coconuts)
0.26 | 74 g (1 cup) | Nuts, coconut, sweetened, flakes, dried
0.2 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, coconut, unsweetened, dried
2.399 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, filberts/hazelnuts, dry roasted, unblanched, w/o salt
0.425 | 28.35 g (1 oz (10-12 kernels) | Nuts, macadamia nuts, dry roasted, without salt added
3.053 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, mixed w/peanuts, dry roasted w/salt added
6.128 | 28.35 g (1 oz (20 halves)) | Nuts, pecans, dried
9.674 | 28.35 g (1 oz (167 kernels)) | Nuts, pine nuts, pignolias, dried
3.94 | 28.35 g (1 oz (49 kernels)) | Nuts, pistachios, dry roasted w/salt
9.944 | 28.35 g (1 oz) | Nuts, walnut, black, dried
3.066 | 13.6 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, fish, cod liver
4.144 | 14 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable, canola
0.245 | 13.6 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable, coconut
7.983 | 13.6 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable/salad/cooking, corn
1.35 | 13.5 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable/salad/cooking, olive
4.32 | 13.5 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable/salad/cooking, peanut
10.149 | 13.6 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable/salad/cooking, safflower, linoleic >70%
1.952 | 13.6 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable/salad/cooking, safflower, oleic >70%
5.671 | 13.6 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable/salad/cooking, sesame
7.874 | 13.6 g (1 tbsp) | Oil, vegetable/salad/cooking, soybean
[/quote]

<< I need a minor edit, (admin/mods? help?) Walnut is now labelled properly, also I added in the citation that the textbook I am using actually obtained the data from the USDA database. >>

[Aytundra]

Okay, say we are in peat universe, then we would believe the following is true:

- It is healthy to eat some animal food
- It is healthy to eat some fat, probably at least 20 gram of fat, maybe more?
- It is healthy to limit PUFA as much as possible. At least less than 4 gram of PUFA a day.

Theoretically, you would want zero gram of PUFA.
But in practice, you want some PUFA, otherwise you would not eat animal food, and eat too little fat (every fat contains PUFA).

{I cannot swallow adjectives of "healthy". It is a word often misused by commercials to market packaged (bad) foods as a good food.}

In Ray Peat's universe:
- It is on the Peat's menu to eat some animal food.
- It is on the Peat's menu to eat some fat.
- It is on the Peat's theory to eat zero PUFA.

Ray Peat's menu does not match Ray Peat's theory.

[Aytundra]

Okay, say we are in peat universe, then we would believe the following is true:

- It is healthy to eat some animal food
- It is healthy to eat some fat, probably at least 20 gram of fat, maybe more?
- It is healthy to limit PUFA as much as possible. At least less than 4 gram of PUFA a day.

Theoretically, you would want zero gram of PUFA.
But in practice, you want some PUFA, otherwise you would not eat animal food, and eat too little fat (every fat contains PUFA).

{I cannot swallow adjectives of "healthy". It is a word often misused by commercials to market packaged (bad) foods as a good food.}

For example lots of companies like to promote veggies:
i.e. - It is healthy to eat some veggies. This product contains vegetable-oil and is animal-friendly, no animal products were used, Good for vegetarians!
- It is healthy to eat some veggies. Our new baked (not-fried) chips are made from specially selected corn, potatoes, sweet potatoes,..,etc, all good vegetables.

Before we say something is healthy.
Kasper, how do you know it is healthy for you to limit PUFA?

[Aytundra]

It is healthy to breathe. (Buteyko, will say, it depends on how you do it.)
It is healthy to exercise. (Some times exercise can be dangerous, it depends on how you do it.)
It is healthy to eat fiber. (RRM will disagree)
It is healthy to eat vegetables. (Dr. Ede will disagree)
"It is healthy to eat some animal foods." (Vegetarians will disagree with you.)
"It is healthy to eat some fat." {fine, i will agree on you with this one; because all humans eat some food with fat in it whether these humans are vegetarians or omnivores, this sentence is fine. ;;;;! But it depends on how you do it.}

My Definition of Healthy:
Healthy = Life protecting behaviour

[Aytundra]

Food companies often misuse the word "Healthy" to mean TASTE-BUD & EMOTIONS PROTECTING BEHAVIOUR (plus Our Company's PROFIT PROTECTING BEHAVIOUR): It is a healthy choice, choose our product to start your day! ( and it is very healthy for us to get your money ).

[Aytundra]

In Ray Peat's universe:
- It is on the Peat's menu to eat some animal food.
- It is on the Peat's menu to eat some fat.
- It is on the Peat's theory to eat zero PUFA.

Ray Peat's menu does not match Ray Peat's theory.

Back to Peat universe.

Ray Peat's theory thinks that it is healthy (life-protecting-behaviour) to eat zero PUFA.
Why do you believe that Kasper? (And why do so many other people {at least on the Peat Forum} believe that?)

- It is healthy to limit PUFA as much as possible. At least less than 4 gram of PUFA a day.

Why 4 g, what is the rationale?

[Kasper]

In Ray Peat's universe:
- It is on the Peat's menu to eat some animal food.
- It is on the Peat's menu to eat some fat.
- It is on the Peat's theory to eat zero PUFA.

Ray Peat's menu does not match Ray Peat's theory.

Come on .... You are being so stubborn. On Wai's universe it is theorized that it is best to eat zero anti-nutrients and to eat zero "dirty" protein. In practice, this is also not possible. It is exactly the same thing. You try to eat as ripe fruit as possible. Probably on most days it is not perfectly ripe. And even if it is perfectly ripe it will contain some anti nutrients. I never heard you being so stubborn about that. Now Ray Peat touches your holy avocados and all hell breaks loose.

Also this quote from Ray Peat:

I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that the optional dietary level of the "essential fatty acids" might be close to zero, if other dietary factors were also optimized. The practical question, though, has to do with the dietary choices that can be made at the present time.

Before we say something is healthy.
Kasper, how do you know it is healthy for you to limit PUFA?

I don't know. I'm not saying it is healthy, I said in Ray Peat's universe this is healthy. I have no strong own opinion of health. I'm no health expert like RRM or Ray Peat. Omega-3 and omega-6 is maybe one of the small subjects I have some opinion, because I really studied it some time ago. I can tell you what RRM says, and his reasonings. Now I try to explain to you what Ray Peat reasoning is, I think also told you that I doubt his theory.

I like to experiment on my body, and try different things. And from my own experience, huge PUFA intake is huge hair loss and red eyes. I prefer white shiny eyes and strong hair, so I don't think I'll ever try high PUFA again. I'm not convinced with the zero PUFA is optimal theory of Ray Peat, but I also don't find it that interesting, as it is practically impossible.

[Kasper]

Why 4 g, what is the rationale?

I'm not totally sure why, I believe there was some cancer study done or something that showed effects of less than 4 gram of PUFA.

I think in Ray Peat's universe that this is also the mechanism how aspirin is protective to some cancers, as aspirin kind of prevents PUFA from being metabolised into inflammatory prostaglandins.

[Kasper]

Ray Peat's theory thinks that it is healthy (life-protecting-behaviour) to eat zero PUFA.
Why do you believe that Kasper? (And why do so many other people {at least on the Peat Forum} believe that?)

I think there is not done enough studies about 0 gram PUFA in humans.
If there are benefits of PUFA, I think you need only a little bit of it.
I think 2 gram of omega-6 and 2 gram of omega-3 should be more than enough to make sure you are able to make this prostaglandins.

PUFA is highly unstable. PUFA increases AGE formation. I think there is no reason to give your body the burden of more PUFA.
I think in many people, and many diseases there is too much inflammation. This inflammation is coming from PUFA metabolites. So I think it is reasonable to suggest that making sure you have little PUFA intake, may give people in disease a more healthy inflammation response. People that die from a fever, don't die from the virus, but from the inflammation response for example. Maybe if they would have less PUFA in their tissues, they would not die?

[Aytundra]

If we had to put Uribarri in Ray Peat universe, and made him talk like Kasper's style:

I think there is not done enough studies about 0 gram CML-AGE in humans.
If there are benefits of CML-AGE, I think you need only a little bit of it.

CML-AGE is highly unstable. CML-AGE accompanies increases of AGE formation. I think there is no reason to give your body the burden of more CML-AGE.
I think in many people, and many diseases there is too much inflammation. This inflammation is coming from CML-AGE metabolites. So I think it is reasonable to suggest that making sure you have little CML-AGE intake, gives people in disease a more healthy inflammation response. People that die from a fever, don't die from the virus, but from the inflammation response for example. Maybe if they would have less CML-AGE in their tissues, they would not die?

The thing is that both Imaginary-Uribarri's CML-AGE, and Ray Peat's PUFA are in the position to toss out Olive oil, Avocado and Salmon and potentially Egg yolk

Ray Peat's position being stronger in rejecting foods.
While Imaginary-Uribarri's position being quite poisonous to olive oil, and salmon and eggs cooked in oil.

Imaginary Ray Peat:
If you take too much, the PUFA of egg yolks (0.715 g PUFA/17 g egg yolk) will reach over 4 grams after 6 eggs.
And 3 tbsp of olive oil will get you to 4 grams @ 1.35 g PUFA/1 tbsp oil, vegetable/salad/cooking olive.
And 1 avocado is already 3.484 g PUFA/173 g California avocado.
And 3 oz of wild salmon is already at 2.768 g PUFA/ 85 g wild salmon.


Both Uribarri and Ray Peat articles are challenging Wai items.
Olive Oil, Avocado, Salmon, Egg yolks, can be viewed dangerously from their perspectives.

I am trying to untangle the facts and theories in my mind.
Is PUFA dangerous, or is it not?
Is PUFA like CML-AGE?

[Kasper]

I think it is different. There is some theoretical reason for PUFA to be essential. The prostaglandins are used in many biological processes. There is no reason to assume AGE are essential or needed.

People that die from a fever, don't die from the virus, but from the inflammation response for example. Maybe if they would have less CML-AGE in their tissues, they would not die?

No, they die from the inflammation response, that is coming from omega-6 metabolites, not from AGE metabolites.

And 3 oz of wild salmon is already at 2.768 g PUFA/ 85 g wild salmon.

This is quite different from different species it seems. Per 100 gram:

Salmon, red (sockeye), raw 1.4 gram
Fish, salmon, pink, raw 0.8 gram
Fish, Salmon, Chum, raw (Alaska native) 0.8 gram
Fish, Salmon, Atlantic, wild, raw 2.5 gram