Breast Feeding

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avalon
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Post by avalon »

HJG's initial post set the tone.
i have never read such awful scaremongering nonsense.
Why would she be suprised, starting out like this. If she wanted civil banter it might have read like:

I whole-heartedly disagree with Wai's position on...etc etc.
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Post by Guest »

Dadasarah,

I really liked your thoughtful post.

About the connection between women's right to work and WHO's recommendation for 2 years of breastfeeding is that with the current state of affairs, lots of women cannot do both, so it will ipso facto discriminate against working mothers. Something has to be done about either extending the length of the maternity leave, or allowing women to work at home or bring infants to work...
I was however put to a nursing mother, who actually deprived milk from me, even though it cost my parents a king's ransom, so I ended up having extreme malnutrition and no sunlight. They only discovered this months afterwards...
This is very unfortunate! But it's admirable that your parents attempted to do this for you. Perhaps with this kind of experience, you might have some ideas for improving/regulating this type of service.
In China, it is a very commonplace ancient practice. The problem that I have with it is that if women are an underclass, nursing mothers were even more of an underclass. Usually, women would only sell their milk for money if they had to, and in Chinese classical literature, you would find a lot of jealousy and competition between the real mother and the nursing mother, even though the nursing mother definitely belongs to the servant class, and the class oppression really bothered me. What I don't like about it is that the nursing mother is definitely perceived as a "device" (I really don't want to say a c*w), a necessary evil.

I think a system based on exchange is much more humane and egalitarian: one mother provides the milk, the other mother will return in daycare or cooking for the two? Just a proposition...

I may be just naive, but isn't it common knowledge that breast milk is more adapted to human infants? That's what I knew all along. I just don't think that proselytizing or condemning the mothers is going to do the trick; I would personally try the supporting and encouraging route, because I see how hard it is to be a mother.
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

Chin-Chin, when you login, there is a box you can check, so you will be automatically logged in whenever you visit the forum...maybe that helps?
dadasarah
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Post by dadasarah »

I really liked your thoughtful post.

About the connection between women's right to work and WHO's recommendation for 2 years of breastfeeding is that with the current state of affairs, lots of women cannot do both, so it will ipso facto discriminate against working mothers. Something has to be done about either extending the length of the maternity leave, or allowing women to work at home or bring infants to work...
Thanks! I agree. My mom worked and pumped breast milk for my little brother, though only for a year. She would pump ahead of time and store it in the freezer. Is this damaging, RRM?

Also, a few lovely companies provide child care in the office, but that's rare. I'm hoping to have children in a couple of years, but not until I'm financially stable enough to afford to give them the best.
I think a system based on exchange is much more humane and egalitarian: one mother provides the milk, the other mother will return in daycare or cooking for the two? Just a proposition...
Sounds wonderful! Thanks for sharing about the nursing mother practice.
I may be just naive, but isn't it common knowledge that breast milk is more adapted to human infants? That's what I knew all along. I just don't think that proselytizing or condemning the mothers is going to do the trick; I would personally try the supporting and encouraging route, because I see how hard it is to be a mother.
Most people know breast milk is better, but they don't know how much better. In places like some parts of Mexico, the people are so malnourished that companies are jumping in to "save" them, providing vitamin-fortified crackers and formula milk at a "reduced" price, and urging them to do the right thing and buy! Mexico also has the highest per capita consumption of Coca-Cola in the world...I've seen Central Americans pour it into bottles for toddlers...hmmm.

Many people (especially mothers, it seems) are more receptive to a gentler approach. Others might need a wake-up call. This is something to keep in mind.
"Dada is the sun. Dada is the egg. Dada is the Police of the Police." - Richard Huelsenbeck
Chin-Chin
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Post by Chin-Chin »

By the way, I just clarified with my mother on certain points. She actually breastfed me for 4 months. She was not aware of pumping practices, but she actually biked home to breastfeed me twice a day. And when I was given to the nursing mother, I stopped wanting to drink her milk. It was very painful for my mom and she had to ask whoever was at hand to suck the milk. Anyhow, she saved me from the details...

Dadasarah, do you think the fact that the consumption of formula milk and Coca-Cola (or McDonald's) is so correlated is in itself an indication that they tend to target a more poverty-stricken population? About those mal-nourished Mexican mothers, the question goes deeper than the availability of formula milk. I'm actually worried about the living condition of both the children AND the mothers in this case.

Why is there so much endless misery in this world?
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

Well 4 months is pretty good! :)
I wonder if there is something like a minimum amount of time, after which the actual need becomes less important. Or if it's just the longer the better.
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Post by dadasarah »

She was not aware of pumping practices, but she actually biked home to breastfeed me twice a day.
Wow! :shock: Give her a hug for us, eh?
Dadasarah, do you think the fact that the consumption of formula milk and Coca-Cola (or McDonald's) is so correlated is in itself an indication that they tend to target a more poverty-stricken population? About those mal-nourished Mexican mothers, the question goes deeper than the availability of formula milk. I'm actually worried about the living condition of both the children AND the mothers in this case.
No, not necessarily. I have my ideas, but I'd have to do much more research before I can conclude anything. I do think we underestimate the powers of advertising, especially in places with such poor public education.
"Dada is the sun. Dada is the egg. Dada is the Police of the Police." - Richard Huelsenbeck
Chin-Chin
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Post by Chin-Chin »

Oscar wrote:Well 4 months is pretty good! :)
I wonder if there is something like a minimum amount of time, after which the actual need becomes less important. Or if it's just the longer the better.
Well, Wai prescribes one and half years MINIMUM!

This is why a lot of people think that Wai's very extreme in her views, especially for a woman who hasn't practiced what she preaches.

By her own admission (on the old board), she says that she understands nothing about morning sickness and other issues of the like, having never experienced pregnancy herself.
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

I suppose that could be possible when the mother is in optimal health, but 1.5 yrs minimum sounds quite long to me. :?

I'll wait and see how things will go with (dada)Sarah. ;)
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Post by nick »

The Kung, an african nomadic tribe, breastfeed for much longer than 1.5 years. Sometimes for at least 2-3 years possibly.

Sure, Wai doesn't know much about morning sickness, but you haven't said why breastfeeding that long is perhaps too long. Is it?
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

nick wrote:The Kung, an african nomadic tribe, breastfeed for much longer than 1.5 years. Sometimes for at least 2-3 years possibly.
Wow! Amazing! So maybe that would be natural?
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Post by Chin-Chin »

Hi Nick,

I don't have the pretension to pronounce the optimal length of time for breastfeeding. I only said that beyond biological factors, there are also human factors to take into consideration. Wai's article makes it sound like women are cows and they should provide the best milk... sorry that's how I felt about the article. You can just sense that a mother who has gone through the mysterious life-giving experience would never write like that.

On a totally different note, I heard that one boy in China continued being breastfed until he was 18 and created quite a scandal (the incest factor, etc). Does that mean that as long as you keep sucking, the milk will keep coming?
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Post by Oscar »

Chin-Chin wrote:On a totally different note, I heard that one boy in China continued being breastfed until he was 18 and created quite a scandal (the incest factor, etc).
Wow! :shock:
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Chin-Chin wrote:Wai's article makes it sound like women are cows and they should provide the best milk...
Wai's article is about what is best for the baby. Not about what is easy.
If you want a baby, you should accept the responsibility that comes with it; taking care of that baby as good as you possibly can, which includes giving it mother's milk for at least 1.5 yrs.
You can just sense that a mother who has gone through the mysterious life-giving experience would never write like that.
So, you feel you are qualified to speak for all mothers?
In your view, all mothers feel its not really required to breastfeed for 1.5 years minimum?
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Post by Chin-Chin »

RRM,

In my view, I don't feel that I or anybody has the rights to tell mothers what they should do.

Again, I have no idea how long babies should be breastfed for optimal health and that's not what we are debating. The issue is about giving the majority of the mothers on this earth a little bit more credit and talk to them with a bit more respect. And I don't feel that the tone of the article is promoting that. I feel more a general anger and distrust towards mothers, and I don't want to subscribe to that point of view.
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