The self does not exist, you do not exist.

State of mind, mental focus, ADHD, sleep, motivation, studying etc
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Oscar
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by Oscar »

waipete wrote:Yes I mean the measure of time, what we call a day or a year, both inaccurate measures but still very close.
Ah ok. So it's not about the existence of time per se, but about our interpretation and application of it. Well, I agree with you there.

I think there are several levels of truth. Universal, world, and personal truth. With the latter each of us sees and interprets/creates reality in a different way. This means that objects, experiences, events, (also other people as they are/act), which are inherently neutral, are interpreted and reacted to in an individual way.
panacea
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by panacea »

Except that we, too, are interpreting and reacting to them in an inherently neutral way as well (in determinism, neural processes are just as predictable as physics, if we had the technology and knowledge to predict it). So that we can say, in a deterministic model - interpreting and reacting to things in an individual way is due to unique circumstances, not the all too common belief in the unique free will of the individual.
waipete
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by waipete »

panacea wrote:you're speaking in riddles and making no logical sense
the way things really are is far too abstract for a human mind to think about
that is why we come up with concepts - to make sense of things and manipulate them to help us with our lives, such as using the principles of physics to create new technologies

using zen, religion, or other shamanistic voodoo riddled thinking to come up with a Hakuna Matata philosophy is just another dead end stunt of human growth, it's unneccesary. Pure determinism is as peaceful of a mindset as you can achieve (there is no good or evil or right and wrong in such a system).

Since time represents the movement of events, if time isn't real means that these movements stop. Why rename this movement of events to something other than time? The label of time is accurately describing this just as well as any other name. If movement of events happen at all - there is a concept behind it, that's the fundamental law of determinism, that the movement of events has a cause, effect, and medium. Only with a medium can you differentiate between cause and effect.
Concepts are what cause fear and happiness, sure you can live on 1 side of the spectrum and in bliss, or live in fear and try to escape. With concepts we feel good once we think we know it all, then something happens, we realize we don't, this happiness was only temporary we are back on a search, for what, something that keeps running away? Concepts will never truly capture reality, but with your own direct experience you can experience without the scope of a concept, trying to look through this scope we become confused, our concepts don't totally add up with what we see. I think human kind has got along fine without concepts for however many years, same with the animals. My intent is not to riddle to mind, but to unriddle it more like, What I'm trying to project is concepts are the riddles, life is not and it's only more abstract when you look through the scope of scientific concepts.

I totally agree with the bold part.

Time is fine, I understand it's concepts and it is useful in my everyday life, just when I start mistaken it for reality and try to control time it becomes confusing. I don't believe in the self existing but I still use it to communicate, I don't believe time exists but I think the basics of it is useful, but time itself is not a necessity.
waipete
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by waipete »

panacea wrote: using zen, religion, or other shamanistic voodoo riddled thinking to come up with a Hakuna Matata philosophy is just another dead end stunt of human growth, it's unneccesary. Pure determinism is as peaceful of a mindset as you can achieve (there is no good or evil or right and wrong in such a system).
waipete wrote: I totally agree with the bold part.
I still agree but I have something to say on this. Peace is not something to achieve, peace is when you act totally natural without bias, you can't force peace. Peace comes should come naturally, natural like how a cat doesn't hesitate to act, but just acts from his own knowings. Peace is when a mother lifts the car to save her child underneath, peace is laughter, peace is not fearing the future, even if shortcomings are foreseen, peace is not found through meditation. Peace is being content with the universe, not trying to wish it, control it, explain it, or in other words control it, but realizing we have no control at all. Peace is total harmony, being optimal, not disturbing the balance, when we pollute the universe we pollute ourselves, we are the universe.
panacea
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by panacea »

All I can say is that you haven't shown any logic to your claims. You say that 'when we think we know it all' we are in bliss but then we are not when we find out we don't know it all'. This seems very specific and tailored to you, not general human behavior. For example, simply knowing that everything is predetermined gets rid of all excess stress. Stress serves an important function to navigate our lives - too much of it is the problem. Too much stress always comes from a misunderstanding of reality - thinking that we have free will in the situation.

If you can find a stressful situation that your philosophy solves which determinism doesn't, then it would be a better model. So far determinism does this for all possible excess stressful situations and is based on a higher level of thought than primitivism, which increases our lifespan and helps us survive on an overpopulated planet, whereas primitive humans would quickly die out if they had the numbers the 'higher than animal intelligence' human population has today. They wouldn't be able to organize massive food production etc.

It's impossible to understand and see the deterministic nature of things and still not be at peace, unless you temporarily or permanently forget the deterministic nature of things.. So instead of praying to god and putting your emotional burden on this figment of imagination, we can put the burden on reality - a better model as it turns out, since it doesn't stunt intelligence, like primitivism, religions, shamanism, buddhism, etc do. Since they are inaccurate models of reality, they always have fears and rules which don't make sense - such as, in your case, the fear of concepts.
abicahsoul
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by abicahsoul »

We are here and so is this world. Better deal with it. That's how I see it. :D
waipete
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by waipete »

I don't fear concepts, I fear real things like a big scary bear :). I know concepts are unimportant, simply because they keep me up at night, my mind races, but when I attend to my present it's easier to sleep. Also when I think I go into this bliss too. I try to eat well and exercise not to prolong life (Death does not exist) but to not fall ill. I also used to get anxiety sometimes in social situations, I found out being in the moment totally cured my anxiety. I don't believe in free will either. I think every time we try to control nature, we invite undesired effects... for instance if we tried to feed the poor we cause more famine. When we create order in society we create also rebels, crime and disorder. When we colonize we create wars, crimes, plagues, diseases, religions, and peoples thoughts become a trend. I think technology is a crutch on life, causes over population. All of modern society has been built upon concepts and dreams... and look at where we are now.
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Oscar
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by Oscar »

panacea wrote:Except that we, too, are interpreting and reacting to them in an inherently neutral way as well (in determinism, neural processes are just as predictable as physics, if we had the technology and knowledge to predict it). So that we can say, in a deterministic model - interpreting and reacting to things in an individual way is due to unique circumstances, not the all too common belief in the unique free will of the individual.
Yes, exactly.
abicahsoul wrote:We are here and so is this world. Better deal with it. That's how I see it. :D
Swedish pragmatism, I guess. ;)
panacea
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by panacea »

waipete wrote:I don't fear concepts, I fear real things like a big scary bear :). I know concepts are unimportant, simply because they keep me up at night, my mind races, but when I attend to my present it's easier to sleep. Also when I think I go into this bliss too. I try to eat well and exercise not to prolong life (Death does not exist) but to not fall ill. I also used to get anxiety sometimes in social situations, I found out being in the moment totally cured my anxiety. I don't believe in free will either. I think every time we try to control nature, we invite undesired effects... for instance if we tried to feed the poor we cause more famine. When we create order in society we create also rebels, crime and disorder. When we colonize we create wars, crimes, plagues, diseases, religions, and peoples thoughts become a trend. I think technology is a crutch on life, causes over population. All of modern society has been built upon concepts and dreams... and look at where we are now.
You say concepts are unimportant because they keep you up at night, yet this makes no sense. Constantly drinking something (without any break) would also cause you to stay up at night, since your body is busy doing something, that doesn't mean that drinking is unimportant - it just means it's not a good activity to try when trying to fall asleep - just as thinking about abstract or complicated concepts isn't either..

Death does exist - our biological function terminates. Most likely you are thinking the term death means 'end of existence', and it doesn't mean that. We are transformed into some other type of energy and organization of matter as we decompose - that doesn't mean death doesn't exist. It's a concept we use to understand the transformation of things, like the transformation of a living thing to a nonliving thing, or the transformation of a star to a supernova (death of a star). These are both extremely useful concepts that help us understand things - even though thinking about them might keep us up at night. If you really believe death doesn't exist then you wouldn't be afraid of dying - jumping out infront of a semi, drinking poison, etc, since pain is also just a concept within the concept of life. But you are afraid of these things (fear being a concept also), and therefore haven't escaped conceptual thinking, and as unimportant as you deem it, still use it constantly.

Being 'totally in the moment' helps with anxiety because social anxiety stems from thinking about the negative consequences or thoughts of other people regarding you - fear of people you could say, and fear comes from dwelling on these negative thoughts. Dwelling on negative thoughts which cause anxiety is not grounds for condemning all conceptual thinking, as a great deal of thinking can be focused on positive things, and a great deal of negative thinking can help us avoid bad situations (I shouldn't kill that guy that made me mad, or I'll go to jail, as opposed to, if I kill that guy that made me mad and I go to jail, then jail is just a concept and the death penalty is fake because death doesn't exist, I'll still be in the moment and live forever). I hope you can see how ineffective this philosophy would be.

Where we are at now is not the fault of technology, technology is neutral (as are we, but that is hard to understand), and like a double edged sword technology can be used for 'good' and 'bad'.
waipete
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by waipete »

panacea wrote:You say concepts are unimportant because they keep you up at night, yet this makes no sense. Constantly drinking something (without any break) would also cause you to stay up at night, since your body is busy doing something, that doesn't mean that drinking is unimportant - it just means it's not a good activity to try when trying to fall asleep - just as thinking about abstract or complicated concepts isn't either..
This is exactly my point, conceptualizing should be kept to a minimum. I thought my concepts were more important then sleep, I was wrong.
Death does exist - our biological function terminates. Most likely you are thinking the term death means 'end of existence', and it doesn't mean that. We are transformed into some other type of energy and organization of matter as we decompose - that doesn't mean death doesn't exist. It's a concept we use to understand the transformation of things, like the transformation of a living thing to a nonliving thing, or the transformation of a star to a supernova (death of a star). These are both extremely useful concepts that help us understand things
Its kinda like how you say good and bad don't exists, well here life and death don't exist, only in a concept they do, as you said, my point entirely. Furthermore this also leads to concepts not being real. I agree with you 100% here. I think our only disagreement now is the usefulness of concepts.
Being 'totally in the moment' helps with anxiety because social anxiety stems from thinking about the negative consequences or thoughts of other people regarding you - fear of people you could say, and fear comes from dwelling on these negative thoughts. Dwelling on negative thoughts which cause anxiety is not grounds for condemning all conceptual thinking, as a great deal of thinking can be focused on positive things, and a great deal of negative thinking can help us avoid bad situations (I shouldn't kill that guy that made me mad, or I'll go to jail, as opposed to, if I kill that guy that made me mad and I go to jail, then jail is just a concept and the death penalty is fake because death doesn't exist, I'll still be in the moment and live forever). I hope you can see how ineffective this philosophy would be.
Yes, I also had positive thoughts too, it wasn't so much positive and negative thoughts that was feared, it was more of my trying to control the situation with what I, In my head had the whole social meeting planned, but then in reality it didn't pan out quite as well, there was a mismatch between what I thought and what really happened. This made me very nervous which well you know led to discomfort this I also feared, now I don't really care, what happens, because when I'm comfortable I can easily talk about anything.
Where we are at now is not the fault of technology, technology is neutral (as are we, but that is hard to understand), and like a double edged sword technology can be used for 'good' and 'bad'.
I'm gonna have to agree with you, I still think it causes overpopulation but still other things will happen to counter over population, I just hope the knowledge of what technology does is passed on and understood.
panacea
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by panacea »

panacea wrote:You say concepts are unimportant because they keep you up at night, yet this makes no sense. Constantly drinking something (without any break) would also cause you to stay up at night, since your body is busy doing something, that doesn't mean that drinking is unimportant - it just means it's not a good activity to try when trying to fall asleep - just as thinking about abstract or complicated concepts isn't either..
waipete wrote:This is exactly my point, conceptualizing should be kept to a minimum. I thought my concepts were more important then sleep, I was wrong.
That might be your point, it certainly wasn't mine. I was outlining how overdoing something, such as constantly drinking water, or constantly thinking about complex things while trying to fall asleep, can make a perfectly good thing in moderation become a problem.
Death does exist - our biological function terminates. Most likely you are thinking the term death means 'end of existence', and it doesn't mean that. We are transformed into some other type of energy and organization of matter as we decompose - that doesn't mean death doesn't exist. It's a concept we use to understand the transformation of things, like the transformation of a living thing to a nonliving thing, or the transformation of a star to a supernova (death of a star). These are both extremely useful concepts that help us understand things
waipete wrote:Its kinda like how you say good and bad don't exists, well here life and death don't exist, only in a concept they do, as you said, my point entirely. Furthermore this also leads to concepts not being real. I agree with you 100% here. I think our only disagreement now is the usefulness of concepts.
Good and bad do exist as concepts - however the concept of determinism overrules them. We use the superficial concepts to make sense of things, to determine the right and wrong paths in our lives so that deterministically we will be more likely to shy away from what society deems 'bad' and toward the 'good', even though we have no choice and are inherently innocent, the superficial dogma of good and bad itself creates a situation where people act differently.
Being 'totally in the moment' helps with anxiety because social anxiety stems from thinking about the negative consequences or thoughts of other people regarding you - fear of people you could say, and fear comes from dwelling on these negative thoughts. Dwelling on negative thoughts which cause anxiety is not grounds for condemning all conceptual thinking, as a great deal of thinking can be focused on positive things, and a great deal of negative thinking can help us avoid bad situations (I shouldn't kill that guy that made me mad, or I'll go to jail, as opposed to, if I kill that guy that made me mad and I go to jail, then jail is just a concept and the death penalty is fake because death doesn't exist, I'll still be in the moment and live forever). I hope you can see how ineffective this philosophy would be.
waipete wrote:Yes, I also had positive thoughts too, it wasn't so much positive and negative thoughts that was feared, it was more of my trying to control the situation with what I, In my head had the whole social meeting planned, but then in reality it didn't pan out quite as well, there was a mismatch between what I thought and what really happened. This made me very nervous which well you know led to discomfort this I also feared, now I don't really care, what happens, because when I'm comfortable I can easily talk about anything.
If there was a mismatch between your expectations and what happened, then you are forgetting the deterministic nature of things (out of your control) and this is causing you to feel uncomfortable, just like I said. How ridiculous would it be to feel uncomfortable in this situation if you could point to the deterministic nature of every other situation in your life - soon you would 'believe', even on a subconcious level, the deterministic nature of reality and wouldn't be anxious anymore... Non-deterministic views of most of society have been adapted by just about everyone and we can't help but feel 'human' (weak with our emotions) because of it, usually.

Where we are at now is not the fault of technology, technology is neutral (as are we, but that is hard to understand), and like a double edged sword technology can be used for 'good' and 'bad'.
waipete wrote:I'm gonna have to agree with you, I still think it causes overpopulation but still other things will happen to counter over population, I just hope the knowledge of what technology does is passed on and understood.
Overpopulation is caused by a lot of things not just technology, and the single most efficient remedy for it is to spread awareness about its negative impacts, and then pass laws to control it. In primitive circumstances there can be overpopulation and underpopulation, at the mercy of the Earth, which is not Mother Nature might I add, the universe is a lot bigger than this one tiny planet, and there is no reason to believe that we should follow the 'divine wisdom' of this one planet, as if it's intelligent. If we did that with other planets, for example, taking a trip to mars without a spacesuit and trusted in nature, we would die. There will come a time when Earth, too, becomes inhabitable for us, and we must hope our technology is advanced enough for us to adapt, and hopefully reverse the planets processes to make it habitable, or move somewhere else. Of course, our future generations wouldn't be able to do that if we didn't teach them the ever-so-important conceptual thinking.
waipete
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by waipete »

Sorry panacea I hate to leave things this way but I don't have much computer time for this topic anymore, my work has been lacking and I need to trim the less important things outta my life. Good luck friend.
abicahsoul
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by abicahsoul »

Oscar wrote:
abicahsoul wrote:We are here and so is this world. Better deal with it. That's how I see it. :D
Swedish pragmatism, I guess. ;)
:lol: yes, exactly...

Your self still has to pay the rent..
The self: "I pay the rent, therefore I exist." :wink: Or somethink like that.. :P
I'm a practical girl..
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Oscar
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by Oscar »

As long as you don't exist just to pay the rent...oh well, even that's okay I guess... ;)
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Re: The self does not exist, you do not exist.

Post by mario91 »

"Methaphysics is just a result of being unwell" - Fernando Pessoa
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