I love this diet but want a ketogenic diet

Challenges and trouble-shooting
chris m failla
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I love this diet but want a ketogenic diet

Postby chris m failla » Sat 23 Jun 2007 02:03

:o my first thought about this diet is that seems "perfect". It makes sense, and makes me feel great. My ONLY concern is that im torn between doing a ketogenic diet that will without doubt burn body fat for fast fat loss. With wai diet the carb and sugar content seems high. I have read the site and understand that we utilize the sugar from fruit at that moment, but there seems to be little room for error. Like if you eat fruit when you dont NEED it, it could get stored. Insulin will be in the bloodstream most of the time because of the sugar, leading to zero fat loss. Do I have this right? I really want to lose about thirty pounds, and I cant make up my mind on what diet to use. HELP
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » Sat 23 Jun 2007 11:53

Maybe you want to read some of the threads in the "Losing overweight" forum, for discussions about this topic.
chris m failla wrote:Insulin will be in the bloodstream most of the time because of the sugar, leading to zero fat loss. Do I have this right?
No this isn't correct. Insulin is needed to convert excess nutrients. If there are no excess nutrients, there is no insulin needed. This goes for sugars, fat and protein.
chris m failla
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Postby chris m failla » Wed 27 Jun 2007 04:46

Hey guys, I thought the point of this diet and more importantly the point of anti ageing was not to exercise to much. I thought this diet, of mainly fruits and fats, was to be slim without having to run, and sweat, and cause adrenline to constrict our arteries. Im looking for a diet to use that is anti aging as well as burn fat naturally. Im Narrowing it down to a ketogenic diet of mainly fats and and some raw animal protein. Im just thinking that constantly puting sugar in the body keeps insulin elevated to shuttle the glucose into the cell. If you guys can change my mind, Im all ears.
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Oscar
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Postby Oscar » Wed 27 Jun 2007 10:27

Because of the many small "meals" and only/mostly replenishing blood sugar, the Wai Diet is a low-insulin diet. Protein has a bigger insulin response than sugar, and bigger meals too.
chris m failla
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Postby chris m failla » Wed 27 Jun 2007 15:33

I believe that big meals definetely are dangerous, and cause high insulin secrection, but all the studies I have read, show that sugar and carbs cause an insulin response and protein can convert to glucose if needed by 58%. It is not that I dont trust you, because I do Oscar, but Im just trying to figure this stuff out piece by piece. Peace
chris m failla
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Postby chris m failla » Wed 27 Jun 2007 15:42

Alot of studies are coming out saying that carbs cause the many diseases we call aging. Like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and others. Fructose is fructose, no matter where it comes from. Obviously fruit has water and essential nutrients, but what about the sugar that may cause the negative chemical reaction in our bodies. Just like the old saying "fruit is natures CANDY". Im just afraid of making a mistake. However, I do realize that a no carb diet may contain to much protein, even if it is raw, it may be hazardous. See how im confused on what diet to use for fat loss. I do know that alot of science and results are happening from the ketogenic diet. Bodybuiders, models, and actors, like Brad Pitt, use a no-low carb diet to get lean. But maybe thats only temporary. They probably go back to fruit and other stuff after.
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Postby Oscar » Thu 28 Jun 2007 11:47

chris m failla wrote:...but all the studies I have read, show that sugar and carbs cause an insulin response...
Of course, that is a well-known fact. What is less well-known is that protein causes a bigger response.
I think that people on a ketogenic diet tend to eat a few big meals per day, resulting in a huge insulin response.
chris m failla wrote:...and protein can convert to glucose...
Yes, that is correct.
chris m failla wrote:Alot of studies are coming out saying that carbs cause the many diseases we call aging. Like cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and others.
One has to be very careful with interpreting studies. The setup of, and circumstances in which an experiment is done, determine the frame of outcome. This means results will be limited to that frame.
Interpreting results and coming to a conclusion can be subjective, even such that the conclusion has little to do with the results.
Then when the media take it up, they have to attract viewers/readers with something 'sensational', so they will turn even the most tentative conclusion into "hard" facts. Like when the conclusion from an experiment is: "the results of this experiment seem to indicate that X could be connected to cardiovascular disease" the media would turn it into: "X causes cardiovascular disease!".
So, be aware of the source, read the scientific article itself or at least the summary, and ask questions like:
- what is the setup of this experiment?
- what are the results and how should they be interpreted?
- what is the conclusion, is it really conclusive, and does it correlate to my interpretation of the results?
chris m failla wrote:Fructose is fructose, no matter where it comes from.
Erm yes... ;)
chris m failla wrote:Obviously fruit has water and essential nutrients, but what about the sugar that may cause the negative chemical reaction in our bodies.
What negative chemical reaction?
chris m failla wrote:Bodybuiders, models, and actors, like Brad Pitt, use a no-low carb diet to get lean. But maybe thats only temporary. They probably go back to fruit and other stuff after.
You can lose weight on ANY diet. As long as you make sure that your daily caloric intake is less than your daily caloric output. Like you said, the point is not the dieting itself, but what you do afterwards. Of course this bypasses the problem of getting the body all the nutrients it needs.
chris m failla
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Postby chris m failla » Thu 28 Jun 2007 15:18

The chemical reaction that may cause insulin resistance. With a constant in take of sugar, blood sugar, your body will not burn its own fat if a high insulin level remains in the bloodstream. Once insulin is lowered, through no-carbing, your body turns to use your own fat or ketones for energy. Some scientist say your body perfers ketones over glucose. The studies I mentioned seem to be in abundance. I also would like read studies and test for an all fruit (sugar) and fat diet, but I have not seen much. I get discourged of Wai diet forum when I read people are having trouble losing weight. How can anybody have trouble, even if they slip up here or there. I dont comprehend. That is my concern. It seems that with high sugar intake, the body wont release its own fat.
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RRM
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Postby RRM » Sat 30 Jun 2007 15:55

chris m failla wrote:protein can convert to glucose if needed by 58%.
Protein is amino acids.
The glucogenic acids are:
methionine, cysteine, valine, threonine, alanine, aspartic acid, glutamic acid, glycine, histidine, proline, serine, and arginine.

The ketogenic acids are:
Leucine and lysine

The remaining amino acids can be converted either in glucose or fat:
Phenylalanine, tyrosine, isoleucine, and tryptophane.
On a low-sugar diet, they will mainly be converted into glucose.
On a low-fat diet, they will mainly be converted into fat

So, on a low-sugar diet, 18 out of 20 amino acids that are consumed beyond requirements for (re)construction purposes (replacing sugars with protein), will readily be converted into glucose (or glucogenic bodies).
Thats not 58%, but 90%.
Also, the insuline-stimulating properties of amino acids is not about their possible conversion-to-glucose rate, but about their intrinsic properties.
Intrinsically, they stimulate insulin release, which does not depend on whether they may be converted into glucogenic bodies.
Check out this study:
J C Floyd, Jr, S S Fajans, J W Conn, R F Knopf, and J Rull, Stimulation of insulin secretion by amino acids. J Clin Invest. 1966 September; 45(9): 1487–1502.

Öscar wrote:What negative chemical reaction?
chris m failla wrote:The chemical reaction that may cause insulin resistance.
That is not a negative chemical reaction. Its essential to life.
Insulin release is essential to regulating energy levels in our body.
Insulin resistance is caused by prolonged over-stimulation of insulin released due to the intake of energy that is not in accordance with our energy needs. Sugars or protein do not cause that. Overeating does, as does the combination of alternated overeating and starvation.
Its about disturbing energy managment.
Giving your body the sugars (or protein) that it needs, when it needs them, can never cause insulin resistance.
With a constant in take of sugar, blood sugar, your body will not burn its own fat if a high insulin level remains in the bloodstream.
IF, indeed.
When does a high insulin level remains in the bloodstream?
When more sugars or protein are consumed than required.
When consuming a big meal, for example.
Or when ingesting more energy than required.
Once insulin is lowered, through no-carbing
Insulin release is not caused by sugars, but by energy.
Protein stimulates insulin release even more than glucose.
If you want to question that, please do, but do not simply ignore it, as if he never wrote that.
your body turns to use your own fat or ketones for energy.
Your body always uses fats for energy, 24/7.
Particularly your heart and bowels need fatty acids for energy, and they work 24/7.
On a ketogenic diet, the body simply uses more protein than sugars for energy, and protein has a more profound effect on insulin release.
Some scientist say your body perfers ketones over glucose.
The moment that sufficient glucose is available, the body starts using it, and stops producing ketones.
Doesn't that seem like the body prefers to use glucose?
The studies I mentioned seem to be in abundance.
Actually, that ketogenic diet is controversial.
I get discourged of Wai diet forum when I read people are having trouble losing weight.
People?
Most of us do not, at all.
The more strict you do this diet, the easier it gets.
If 10 out of 100 do not succeed in eliminating their acne with this diet, do you also get discouraged?
How can anybody have trouble, even if they slip up here or there.
You can lose weight with any diet, and you can fail on any diet.
With this diet its easy (if you can do the diet).
the body wont release its own fat.
The body always does.
Whether more fat is released than gained depends on how much energy you ingest in total (in comparison with total energy expenditure). How easy it is to lose fat very much depends on how much fat is stored after meals (the bigger the meal, the smaller the 'sugar-replenishment ratio')
chris m failla
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Postby chris m failla » Sat 30 Jun 2007 20:55

:shock: Thanks RMR for answering all my questions. Your respones all make sense. Im back on board with eating fruit all day and night. I also read Fit for Life yesterday and that book closely resembles wai diet except for egg yolks. I dont know why I fight it sometimes. But after eating protein for a couple of days, I felt gross. with all that cooked meat in my teeth and a bad taste in my mouth. All I could think about was a nice juicy orange or a mango, and especially watermelon. Its very hot out here in Los angeles. 100 degrees! After one full day on fruit only, I felt awesome! I dont think I have any more doubts. thanks again
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Postby RRM » Tue 03 Jul 2007 17:10

Having doubts is perfectly okay, as it makes you question things, which is good. Thanks for your open mind.
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Postby johndela1 » Tue 03 Jul 2007 22:08

chris m failla wrote::shock: Thanks RMR for answering all my questions. Your respones all make sense. Im back on board with eating fruit all day and night. I also read Fit for Life yesterday and that book closely resembles wai diet except for egg yolks. I dont know why I fight it sometimes. But after eating protein for a couple of days, I felt gross. with all that cooked meat in my teeth and a bad taste in my mouth. All I could think about was a nice juicy orange or a mango, and especially watermelon. Its very hot out here in Los angeles. 100 degrees! After one full day on fruit only, I felt awesome! I dont think I have any more doubts. thanks again
I've read fit for life, too. How does it resemble the wai diet in your opinion? Don't they explicitly say *not* to mix foods that we mix? I remember the main point of the diet to be focused around food combinning. I know they say eat fruit in the morning, but that didn't seem like the focus to me.
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Postby RRM » Wed 04 Jul 2007 09:14

chris m failla wrote (in a separate thread, but answering the post above, so I quote it here and removed that 1-post thread):

" :o Hey, in Fit for life, they say to eat fruit in the morning and preferably for lunch also, and for dinner something like a vetetable soup or for more weight reduction, fruit. They do specify protein by itself, or a carb meal. The carb meal is in my interpitation, the munch food. Because they say if you get hungry after dinner, have fruit only 3 hours after your last meal. NO its not Wai, but the importance of fruit is similar. High water content food is the wai to go. They say to eat melon by itself, first. Basically Wai plus fit for life just reinforced my decision to eat a mostly fruit diet. That WAI diet is the best and most natural. Because for a moment there I was thinking a ketosis diet was best, but after a couple of days on that, I knew it didnt feel right. What feels right is eating a juicy peach, or mango and you can feel it and its water being easily and happily absorbed by the body. On ketosis, I was always thirsty, with a rotten flavor in my mouth."

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