Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
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Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
This story is just a tale of caution about maintaining proper balance.
I'm 29/male, on Wai for about 7 years. About a year ago, I wanted to significantly bulk up after I hit a low weight of 118 lb (53.5 kg). My goal is to get to 144 lb (65.3 kg), and so I increased my caloric intake and started lifting. Most of the extra calories came from adding more sugar to my OJ/OO. At my peak, I was adding up to 30 tablespoons of sugar per day. I keep track of my diet, and the calorie ratios were 55% carb, 38% fat, 7% protein. (Plenty of raw yolks and salmon gave a total of about 70g of protein per day.) Seems typical for this diet. My energy levels were fine, but it seemed odd that I needed 5000 calories per day just to maintain this weight (although I'm extremely active). Recently I made it up to 132 lb (59.8 kg), but I started to notice some health problems that got progressively worse as I added more and more sugar:
-White-coated tongue
-Wounds not healing
-Teeth decaying noticeably
-Abdominal cramps
-Osmotic diarrhea
I finally listened to my body, realized the problem, and made major changes quickly. I have a major need for nutrients. I cut out all of the refined sugar and halved my OJ/OO. I replaced them with what I was craving: more animal food, nuts, and raisins. The cramps and diarrhea immediately stopped. My tongue looks significantly better, and those wounds started healing. I'm taking Ramiel Nagel's advice and working on improving my teeth through diet, focusing on those fat-soluble vitamins. Bumping up the protein from 70g to 100g with more yolks, 1 oz of liver, and some nuts. Cut the carbs by more than half. (Also getting Vitamin D from the sun.) At the moment, my calorie ratios are about 55% fat, 33% carb, 12% protein. I think that I'd like to get the carbs down even more.
I'm still a believer in the Wai raw-and-natural philosophy but I also believe that your teeth warn you how healthy your diet is. And going to a dentist to whiten them is cheating.
I'm 29/male, on Wai for about 7 years. About a year ago, I wanted to significantly bulk up after I hit a low weight of 118 lb (53.5 kg). My goal is to get to 144 lb (65.3 kg), and so I increased my caloric intake and started lifting. Most of the extra calories came from adding more sugar to my OJ/OO. At my peak, I was adding up to 30 tablespoons of sugar per day. I keep track of my diet, and the calorie ratios were 55% carb, 38% fat, 7% protein. (Plenty of raw yolks and salmon gave a total of about 70g of protein per day.) Seems typical for this diet. My energy levels were fine, but it seemed odd that I needed 5000 calories per day just to maintain this weight (although I'm extremely active). Recently I made it up to 132 lb (59.8 kg), but I started to notice some health problems that got progressively worse as I added more and more sugar:
-White-coated tongue
-Wounds not healing
-Teeth decaying noticeably
-Abdominal cramps
-Osmotic diarrhea
I finally listened to my body, realized the problem, and made major changes quickly. I have a major need for nutrients. I cut out all of the refined sugar and halved my OJ/OO. I replaced them with what I was craving: more animal food, nuts, and raisins. The cramps and diarrhea immediately stopped. My tongue looks significantly better, and those wounds started healing. I'm taking Ramiel Nagel's advice and working on improving my teeth through diet, focusing on those fat-soluble vitamins. Bumping up the protein from 70g to 100g with more yolks, 1 oz of liver, and some nuts. Cut the carbs by more than half. (Also getting Vitamin D from the sun.) At the moment, my calorie ratios are about 55% fat, 33% carb, 12% protein. I think that I'd like to get the carbs down even more.
I'm still a believer in the Wai raw-and-natural philosophy but I also believe that your teeth warn you how healthy your diet is. And going to a dentist to whiten them is cheating.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
30 spoons is like 1kg of sugar! That's seriously too much and no wonder you started having health issues.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
Yes, thats too much indeed...
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
To clarify, 30 tbsp was the grand total used per day. So 360 g of sugar. My understanding is that RRM uses 400 g and experimented as high as 500 g.
But, obviously it's too much for me. And so now I'm focused on oxygenation, strengthening my oral health, and avoiding Candida overgrowth.
But, obviously it's too much for me. And so now I'm focused on oxygenation, strengthening my oral health, and avoiding Candida overgrowth.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
This is exacrly what i, and kasper were saying, wai diet can be dangerous for candida issues, tongue coating, stickypoo/diarrhea. Staying longer 100% isnt gonna solve those issues and this proves it. That RRM is fine with it, doesnt mean anything. In my case fruits are safe, honey is safe, but sugar isnt.
Jeffc, please add coconut oil slowly to your diet. It works wonders for candida, tongue coating. It is really easily absorbable and I always call it sugar that has turned to fat. It doesnt use the carnitine system and is, in my opinion, superior to sugar. Please quit sugar... coconut oil kills yeasts, fungi and sticky bacteria. Please also look into xylitol for dental care.
Dont expect too much weight gain from coco oil, I have been eating tons of the stuff and I only seem to lose fat. On the other hand my muscle mass has gone up and I dont do workouts, except for 5km running everyday.
My diet is 100g butter,1coconut, 50g additional coco fat dissolved in 2L OJ, a few spoons of honey, 150g red meat as basis
Then I also eat a juiced pineapple every other day and some kiwis.
My unwai foods are mozarella cheese, a spoon beepollen and a red bull every now and then.
I had alot ofissues with diarrhea, sensitive teeth, and a very bad tongue coating. With the diet I have now and breathing exercises I resolved ALL these problems
Jeffc, please add coconut oil slowly to your diet. It works wonders for candida, tongue coating. It is really easily absorbable and I always call it sugar that has turned to fat. It doesnt use the carnitine system and is, in my opinion, superior to sugar. Please quit sugar... coconut oil kills yeasts, fungi and sticky bacteria. Please also look into xylitol for dental care.
Dont expect too much weight gain from coco oil, I have been eating tons of the stuff and I only seem to lose fat. On the other hand my muscle mass has gone up and I dont do workouts, except for 5km running everyday.
My diet is 100g butter,1coconut, 50g additional coco fat dissolved in 2L OJ, a few spoons of honey, 150g red meat as basis
Then I also eat a juiced pineapple every other day and some kiwis.
My unwai foods are mozarella cheese, a spoon beepollen and a red bull every now and then.
I had alot ofissues with diarrhea, sensitive teeth, and a very bad tongue coating. With the diet I have now and breathing exercises I resolved ALL these problems
Last edited by overkees on Sun 10 Feb 2013 13:03, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
I forgot tomention 2-3 yolks daily. I only eat fish once a week.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
Exactly, even fruit isn't safe for me. Sorry to say, but I think the the current recommendations on waiworld.com regarding sugar are completely ridiculous:This is exacrly what i, and kasper were saying, wai diet can be dangerous for candida issues, tongue coating, stickypoo/diarrhea. Staying longer 100% isnt gonna solve those issues and this proves it. That RRM is fine with it, doesnt mean anything. In my case fruits are safe, honey is safe, but sugar isnt.
"Sugar is just a form of energy, and can be used without problem as long as the complete diet meets macro- and micronutrient requirements."
RRM seems to think that many bad things (including digestive problems) come from fibers, and only good things come from sugars.
The truth is that I have much more success with fibre (psyllium husks) then I've ever had with (pure) sugar.
I doubt that RRM is ever going to change his views on sugar and fibre, but who knows, maybe this topic will let him reconsider his current recommendations.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
Both were part of an experiment, to get a grasp of how much vitamins / minerals we (or i) actually need.JeffC wrote:My understanding is that RRM uses 400 g and experimented as high as 500 g.
I never promoted consuming this much sugar.
I currently use about 230 grams daily.
Sure, that a lot, but it has been shown to be perfectly fine for my body.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
Oh please, any food in the world can be dangerous for specific individuals.overkees wrote:This is exacrly what i, and kasper were saying, wai diet can be dangerous for candida issues, tongue coating, stickypoo/diarrhea.
This has nothing to do with diet, but individual vulnerabilities.
This proves what?Staying longer 100% isnt gonna solve those issues and this proves it.
That consuming too much sugar is too much.
The 100% Wai diet has nothing to do with this.
You have never been able to stay 100% Wai for an extended period of time.My unwai foods are mozarella cheese, a spoon beepollen and a red bull every now and then.
So, dont judge until you did.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
What did JeffC do?Kasper wrote:I think the the current recommendations on waiworld.com regarding sugar are completely ridiculous:
"Sugar is just a form of energy, and can be used without problem as long as the complete diet meets macro- and micronutrient requirements."
... maybe this topic will let him reconsider his current recommendations.
Consuming so much sugar that he did not meet his macro- and micronutrient requirements.
The recommendations are perfectly fine.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
I agree on the fiber part. The only usefull fiber is soluble fiber and we get this from the fruits we eat. Oranges have very good effects for me on digestion. Bananas on the other hand are very tricky. Juicing the bananas reduces the effects, so I think the fiber really is the issue here.
Not all fiber is created equally and to say fiber is bad is not the point. Some people get troubles with fibers from avocado, I don't. Some people get troubles with oranges, they seem to help me.
You really need to look and adjust for yourself what works best. Wai is a very good starting point, but not the holy grail that solves everything. Wai promotes itself as the optimal diet, but that still is so relative and context dependent. What I can say is that there are some safe choices that work for most. Sieved orange juice and coconut oil being some of them. Therefore you should, in my opinion, always try to keep optimizing individually and I think that the wai diet is your best shot at paying attention to listening to what the body needs. And yes, sometimes unwai foods might be a better alternative if you have health problems.
Therefore, keep the strategy: high nutrients : low antinutrients. And optimize the fruits and foods of choice according to that strategy. Don't do what others do, keep listening to your own body. Keep adjusting until satisfied.
Not all fiber is created equally and to say fiber is bad is not the point. Some people get troubles with fibers from avocado, I don't. Some people get troubles with oranges, they seem to help me.
You really need to look and adjust for yourself what works best. Wai is a very good starting point, but not the holy grail that solves everything. Wai promotes itself as the optimal diet, but that still is so relative and context dependent. What I can say is that there are some safe choices that work for most. Sieved orange juice and coconut oil being some of them. Therefore you should, in my opinion, always try to keep optimizing individually and I think that the wai diet is your best shot at paying attention to listening to what the body needs. And yes, sometimes unwai foods might be a better alternative if you have health problems.
Therefore, keep the strategy: high nutrients : low antinutrients. And optimize the fruits and foods of choice according to that strategy. Don't do what others do, keep listening to your own body. Keep adjusting until satisfied.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
JeffC are you 100% wai all the time? You stated that some things were aggrevated when increasing sugar intake, does this mean they were already there, prior to increasing sugar intake?
And RRM, micro and macro nutriens has little to do with sticky pathogens in the gut.
And RRM, micro and macro nutriens has little to do with sticky pathogens in the gut.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
I can't believe you really believe this is true.
If I would replace all my honey with table sugar, macro- and micronutrients would be similar.
But with the honey version, there is no candida problems, with the sugar verison there are lots of candida problems..
"Sugar is just a form of energy, and can be used without problem as long as the complete diet meets macro- and micronutrient requirements and their are no individual vulnerabilities."
This is still not telling the complete story, but would already be a huge improvement.
You know that candida isn't about macro- and micronutrient requirements.What did JeffC do?
Consuming so much sugar that he did not meet his macro- and micronutrient requirements.
The recommendations are perfectly fine.
If I would replace all my honey with table sugar, macro- and micronutrients would be similar.
But with the honey version, there is no candida problems, with the sugar verison there are lots of candida problems..
Aah, so you do agree that this recommendation is incorrect? Why not change it too something like this? :Oh please, any food in the world can be dangerous for specific individuals.
This has nothing to do with diet, but individual vulnerabilities.
"Sugar is just a form of energy, and can be used without problem as long as the complete diet meets macro- and micronutrient requirements and their are no individual vulnerabilities."
This is still not telling the complete story, but would already be a huge improvement.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
Did i write that?overkees wrote:And RRM, micro and macro nutriens has little to do with sticky pathogens in the gut.
They have everything to do with "Wounds not healing".
So, simply too much sugar,
not in accordance with our recommendations.
What is wrong with you people?Kasper wrote:I can't believe you really believe this is true.
...
You know that candida isn't about macro- and micronutrient requirements.
I did not write that !!
Not meeting macro- and micronutrient requirements have everything to do with "Wounds not healing".
So, simply too much sugar,
not in accordance with our recommendations.
That may be one of your individual vulnerabilities.If I would replace all my honey with table sugar, macro- and micronutrients would be similar.
But with the honey version, there is no candida problems, with the sugar verison there are lots of candida problems..
Maybe if you would really go 100% Wai for an extended period of time,
maybe you could finally solve all your issues.
You are not making any sense Kasper.Aah, so you do agree that this recommendation is incorrect? Why not change it too something like this? :Oh please, any food in the world can be dangerous for specific individuals.
This has nothing to do with diet, but individual vulnerabilities.
"Sugar is just a form of energy, and can be used without problem as long as the complete diet meets macro- and micronutrient requirements and their are no individual vulnerabilities.
Are our recommendations to eat raw food incorrect?
They may cause problems in some people....
EACH individual food may be bad for somebody.
Not just sugar, but also mango, papaya, tuna, banana, whatever...
So, should we warn people for each food?
"There may be individual susceptibilities / vulnerabilities".
That is just outright ridiculous, and you know it.
Re: Had osmotic diarrhea (too much sugar)
You might be surprised to hear that I already was using 5 tablespoons of coconut oil per day... I spread it on my Medjool dates. I've been using it daily for years, although I used only 1-3 tbsp/day back then.overkees wrote:Jeffc, please add coconut oil slowly to your diet. It works wonders for candida, tongue coating.
With my records, I can tell you what my diet was on any given day going back to July 2009. From 2009-2011, I used only 56-84 grams of sugar per day, and my total carbs for the day were around 400 g. Calories gradually increased from 3000 to 3700, but many of them were fat/protein. My weight was consistently around 124 lb (56 kg) during this time, gradually declining slightly. Physical activity increased in 2009, necessitating additional calories.
Major changes began in February 2012, when I decided that I wanted to gain muscle weight. 3800-4000 calories, 192 g of sugar, 550-600 g of carbs until July 2012. Then I went up to 4400 calories, 240 g of sugar, 650 g of carbs. September 2012, went to 264 g of sugar. October 2012, 288 g of sugar. Peak in January 2013: 5000 calories, 312 g of sugar, 729 g of carbs. My daily diet at that time (not currently) was:
96 oz of OJ + 312 g of sugar + 6 tbsp OO
8 egg yolks (136 g)
5 Medjool dates (125 g) + 5 tbsp coconut oil
6 oz (159 g) salmon
Fat: 197.7 g (35.55% of calories)
Carbs: 728.7 g (58.24% of calories)
Protein: 77.75 g (6.21% of calories)
I eat only Wai foods, and my diet is the same every day. The only cheating that I do is rarely eating heated fish/meat (social situations). In retrospect, the five issues that I mentioned in the initial post seemed to become increasingly worse as I added more sugar. Seems clear that the refined sugar was depleting my body's nutrients.overkees wrote:JeffC are you 100% wai all the time? You stated that some things were aggrevated when increasing sugar intake, does this mean they were already there, prior to increasing sugar intake?
I quit all refined sugar. I'm rebuilding my diet around fat instead of sugar, especially animal fat. More yolks, some liver, beef. Maybe bone marrow, I haven't tried it yet. More coconut oil is a good possibility. Macadamias may also be an option. I'm mindful of the omega 3 to 6 ratio; I want it to be at 3:1 or better and not get too many PUFAs. I'm hoping 3000 or so calories of these foods will be enough for now.
It's an interesting problem... I'm trying to simultaneously maintain Wai principles (no dairy), gain 15 lb of muscle, and have naturally healthy white teeth. One thing I will add is that my Vitamin D levels are probably quite low as well after months without sunshine. I plan to get outside routinely as soon as the weather permits.