Exercise improves health by evoking 'recycling'

[panacea]

Yes, energy is more efficiently utilized during relative starvation and activity, and (re)construction happens more efficiently after a great influx of nutrients (and during rest).
There will be an optimum of balances somewhere. (preventing too much muscle break down for energy, for example)

I don't see why energy would be more efficiently utilized during relative starvation, and reconstruction happen more efficiently after a great influx of nutrients. Obviously, the body has limits on the amount of starvation it can take before it starts sacrificing stuff you don't want to, and the body has limits on the amount of nutrients it can process for any unit of time, logically it follows that staying as far away from the limits as possible could be optimal, in other words, having the most gradual diet and activity level you can manage. At least that's the "other theory" I was trying to convey. If you ate a very gradual diet, just barely above what you need, and half the time of these days less than what you need, then your body is getting very little excess nutrients to deal with, it has less of a shock, just like walking vs. sprinting. Over short amounts of time, you would be undernourished on an hourly basis so that your body induces small amounts of autophagy to sustain itself, and then the next few hours have gradual meals and resupply.

I think it's plausible that this strategy might be more efficient than, for example, fasting on nothing but water for one day and then eating enough to resupply the previous days losses as well as the current days needs. Or, vastly more efficient than fasting on nothing but water for 3 days and then eating enough for 2 days needs consecutively for the 3 days after. I can see how the opposite might be true, or there might be a sweet spot in between all of these examples, but in order to determine which is best and where the sweet spot might be we need to know the factors/variables that are controlling our metabolism and its efficiency.

[RRM]

I don't see why energy would be more efficiently utilized during relative starvation

Without autophagy, more energy is wasted on the breakdown and reconstruction of entire cells,
whereas with autophagy, those cells are cleaned up, and the cleaned up products (eg organelles) are used for energy and reconstruction,
and the cells are spared, and thus dont need to be rebuild.

I don't see why ... reconstruction happen more efficiently after a great influx of nutrients.

Because a great influx of nutrients evokes the release of anabolic hormones.
In an anabolic state, less 'building blocks' are used for energy.

If you ate a very gradual diet, just barely above what you need, and half the time of these days less than what you need, then your body is getting very little excess nutrients to deal with, it has less of a shock, just like walking vs. sprinting.

Its actually that 'shock' that is required to activate autophagy.
The proteins involved in autophagy and increased longevity, are regarded as 'stress proteins',
and broadly accepted as neuroprotective (as in Alzheimer's, dementia). Calabrese V et al

Over short amounts of time, you would be undernourished on an hourly basis so that your body induces small amounts of autophagy to sustain itself, and then the next few hours have gradual meals and resupply. I think it's plausible that this strategy might be more efficient than, for example, fasting on nothing but water for one day and then eating enough to resupply

I would agree, but actually, the spectacular maximum results (40% increase in longevity) obtained from intermittent fasting,
are exactly about one day eating nothing, and resupply (ad libitum) the next day.

For myself, i currently apply the following method: once a day (before going to bed) i bulk up (juice and salmon) right before and after exercise,
so that the anabolic response to training is optimally efficient.
(this refueling is enough for glycogen refill, building muscle and getting me through the night)
For the rest of the day im drinking only juice, but taking about 50% too little calories.
Im still feeling energetic all day. Muscle tone is very good and im extremely ripped.

Particularly living a very regular life seems to be very important. In that respect, intermittent fasting may be a good tool to impose that regularity physically,
evoking synchrony in metabolism and physiology. Thats because feeding regimens are linked with circadian rhythms and metabolism.Froy O et al
Full Free Text

[dime]

Hmm how much salmon do you eat RRM?

I eat 250g beef + 50g salmon (300g total), but I split half in the morning, and half in the evening after exercise. I've tried eating it all in the evening, but my experience is too much dehydration when I wake up.

-----
Here's my high-level understanding of this stuff.

Autophagy is done in starvation mode in order to allow you survive as long as possible. It's purpose is not to clean and fix the cell (this is the result), the primary purpose is to keep cells going on as long as possible, as building new ones is costly and we're in starvation.

In normal mode there's plenty of resources so autophagy is not really done at such scale. Remember that evolution hardwired you to be in top shape so you can survive and reproduce, not necessarily live long. So when there's enough food cells are simply replaced as you'll function better with a new cell than with a patched up one. But cells can divide finitely many times, so replacing them more often shortens the telomeres faster and will get you to age associated diseases sooner.

Its actually that 'shock' that is required to activate autophagy.
The proteins involved in autophagy and increased longevity, are regarded as 'stress proteins',
and broadly accepted as neuroprotective (as in Alzheimer's, dementia). Calabrese V et al

I'm wondering though why you can induce autophagy in some other ways, e.g. with specific fatty acids? Perhaps they are in foods you'd more likely eat when food is scarce? Or they just happen to be similar to the 'stress proteins'?

[fred]

For myself, i currently apply the following method: once a day (before going to bed) i bulk up (juice and salmon) right before and after exercise,
so that the anabolic response to training is optimally efficient.
(this refueling is enough for glycogen refill, building muscle and getting me through the night)
For the rest of the day im drinking only juice, but taking about 50% too little calories.
Im still feeling energetic all day. Muscle tone is very good and im extremely ripped.

That is precisely (a Wai version of) the Ori Hofmekler's Warrior Diet :

http://www.warriordiet.com/ :

"Its premise: eat one main meal at night, avoid chemicals, combine foods adequately and challenge your body physically. The Warrior Diet shows how to nourish the body in sync with its innate circadian clock – separating between a.m. foods and p.m. foods for effective removal of toxins, increased conversion of fat for energy, increased utilization of nutrients and improved resilience to stress. The result: a leaner, stronger and healthier body.

The Evidence is Undeniable
Recent studies on intermittent fasting have shown the benefits of following eating programs similar to The Warrior Diet. Mice and rats maintained on an intermittent fasting regimen lived up to 30% longer than those fed ad libitum. Especially striking are the improved insulin sensitivity and cardiovascular risk profiles in animals maintained on diets with long inter-meal intervals.

"Our ancestors consumed food much less frequently and often had to subsist on one large meal per day, and thus from an evolutionary perspective, human beings were adapted to intermittent feeding rather than to grazing."
(Mattson, M.P., PhD, Lancet 2005; 365:1978-80)

Humans are inherently nocturnal eaters

As a species we are nocturnal eaters, inherently programmed for night eating. Unfortunately, we consume most of our food during the day, starting with a big breakfast, and we pay the consequences with ever growing epidemics of obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disorders and other modern man diseases. The solution: skip big breakfast and lunch, eat your main meal at night, and you'll notice how you're leaning down and strengthening without even changing your calorie intake. "

[overkees]

Fred, why do you think we are nocturnal eaters? This is not what I've seen in traditional hunter gatherers. During the hunt they always have honey, fruits, coconuts with them. If they don't have acces to fruits they will choose roots and tubers (One of the reasons I eat this in moderation too). If they have caught an animal they will eat it up and then repeat this process all over again. Small animals are not a big problem, but consumption of bigger animals is scarcer. Big game is always celebrated and a very emotional event. Maybe then they will eat at night.

But I must say that I have only seen a fistful of eating habits of traditional hunter gatherers. I find the !Kungs habits most interesting as they are highly likely to still be eating our ancestral diet.

[RRM]

I'm wondering though why you can induce autophagy in some other ways, e.g. with specific fatty acids?

Because these (rare) fatty acids are contained in membranes to act as messenger-molecules.
This is called enzymatic lipoxidation. These oxidation sensitive fatty acids (PUFAs) are used for this purpose because they are sensitive to oxidation.
Because of it, they are sensitive to alteration / damage to the membrane, which releases (products of) these messengers,
to induce autophagy (repair) or apoptosis (cell death).
Also see: http://www.waiwiki.org/index.php/Lipid_ ... poxidation

I think that the influence of curcumin, resveratrol etc has more to do with their specific reactive nature,
which 'accidentally' influences autophagy, similar to the drug-like effects of so many plant ingredients.

how much salmon do you eat RRM?

About 300 grams of salmon, plus 2 egg yolks on top.

That is precisely (a Wai version of) the Ori Hofmekler's Warrior Diet :

Very interesting...
It has been shown that intermittent fasting does not have to result in weight loss. Full Free Text
Besides all the info about autophagy, actually, it was my daughter (1.5 yrs old) who inspired me to try this version of the diet.
She naturally eats this way;
During the day, even when playing actively, she drinks juices (banana-orange, banana-mango or banana-grapes) sparingly and in very small amounts,
whereas right before she goes to sleep (3 times / 24 hrs), she drinks A LOT (about 0.2 L each time), including 2 egg yolks at night.
That surprised me, but i now start to think that it may be 'natural'.

[Nina75]

Ok, I do not understand very well, when you're on a diet Wai 100%, basically you do not need to make an intermitent fasting? Wai on knowing that you ingest any saleter, to fast a day or two when you're on a diet normal is very easy and it should be advocated by all doctors, but on the Wai diet it should not be easy. .... Knowing that he must constantly control your energy ... This is why I do not understand very well : A intermitent fasting can agree with the Wai diet ? Peronnely I see no interest, maybe I'm wrong.

When one is fasting on Wai 100% (without cheating) = no interest and hazards weight.
Fasting on a normal diet = Basically bénénique useful, beneficial



Ok, je comprends pas très bien, quand on est sur la diète Wai à 100%, fondamentalement on a pas besoin de faire un jeûne intermitent ? Sachant que sur Wai on ingère aucune saleter, faire un jeûne d'un jour ou deux quand on est sur une diète normal c'est très facile et ça devrait être préconiser par tous les medecins mais sur la diète Wai ça doit pas être facile..... Sachant qu'il faut constamment controler notre énergie... C'est pour ça que je ne comprends pas très bien : Un jeûne intermitent peut s'accorder avec la diète Wai ? Peronnelement je n'y vois aucun intêret à part une perte de poids rapide, peut être que je me trompe.

Jeûne quand on est sur Wai 100% (sans triche) = Aucun intêret et dangers pour le poids.
Jeûne sur une diète normal = Fondamentalement utile et bénénique.

[fred]

Fred, why do you think we are nocturnal eaters? .

I don't. Traditional hunter gatherers are not the reference upon which our genetic and metabolism have evolved. And each tribes have very different way of living depending on their location, history, habits, etc.

[RRM]

when you're on a diet Wai 100%, basically you do not need to make an intermitent fasting?

You dont need to, indeed.
But studies have shown that regardless of diet, intermittent fasting increases longevity.
That is because intermittent fasting triggers autophagy, which cleans up cells, preventing their death.
Exercise does the same thing, no matter what diet you are on.
Yes, intermittent fasting is quite difficult on Wai; something that you can try once you are very good in sensing and maintaining your energy levels,
knowing exactly how much energy you need at all times.

[Nina75]

So having read the study page 3 and on Google, intermitent fasting is beneficial and also different way by the fasting théraphautique because it is intermittent fasting a fast 8-16 hours per day, ie in I understand that we may from time to time too when you're on Wai 100% can, for example once a month or once every week fasted (fasting) until evening for juice and salmon when you go to bed , it would be reasonable that? Fasting you are talking about here and that is good or fasting 8-16 hours per day to the fullest? Good to know anyway


Donc en ayant lu l'étude page 3 ainsi que sur Google, le jeûne intermitent serait bénéfique et aussi diférent que le jeune théraphautique parce que le jeûne intermittent consiste lui a un jeûne de 8-16 heures par jour, c'est à dire en fait si je comprends bien on peut de temps en temps pas trop quand on est sur Wai à 100% on peut par exemple une fois par mois ou une fois toute les semaines jeûner jusqu'au soir pour avoir jus et saumon quand on va au lit, cela serait raisonnable en fait ? Le jeûne dont vous parlez ici et bien celui on ou jeûne 8-16 heures par jour au maximum ? Bon à savoir en tout cas

[RRM]

I understand that we may from time to time too when you're on Wai 100% can, for example once a month or once every week fasted (fasting) until evening for juice and salmon when you go to bed , it would be reasonable that?

Yes, as long as you have good control over your bodyweight.
One shouldnt do this when easily losing too much weight.
It should only be done when you are very experienced with this diet and fully in control, getting exactly there where you want to be.
(regarding weight, muscle volume, feeling energetic, mood, etc)

[dime]

Not sure if you realized but that warrior diet is about eating everything in 4 hours before sleep. Let's say 2000kcal within 4 hours. There's no snacking/eating anything else outside of these 4 hours.
The generic intermittent fasting is 8 hours I think.

[RRM]

Not sure if you realized but that warrior diet is about eating everything in 4 hours before sleep.

Im not trying to adhere to that version.

The generic intermittent fasting is 8 hours I think.

I guess there are various ways to go about it.
Some of the studies i came across all mentioned one day eating ad libitum alternated with one day of fasting.

[dime]

Im not trying to adhere to that version.

Yes I just wanted to clear that up, since fred said this about your pattern of eating, which is incorrect

That is precisely (a Wai version of) the Ori Hofmekler's Warrior Diet

I still like the idea of simply restricting protein a bit and otherwise following your energy needs much more, than doing any sort of fasting.

To better understand the effects of intermittent fasting it's worth looking at the effects of Ramadan. This article gives a pretty good summary on caloric and dietary restriciton:
Impact of caloric and dietary restriction regimens on markers of health and longevity in humans and animals: a summary of available findings Trepanowski et al., Full article

During the holy month of Ramadan, all healthy adult Muslims are forbidden from consuming any food or water from sunrise (Sahur) to sunset (Iftar). Food and fluid intake become nocturnal during Ramadan, and the common practice is to eat one large meal after sunset and one lighter meal before dawn [123]. Ramadan is clearly the most commonly researched religious fast. The collective work highlights both the positive and negative effects of Ramadan fasting on overall health.
...
It was previously thought that Ramadan fasting often led to reduced energy intake and weight loss [124], but recent studies have found that caloric intake actually increases despite the decreased meal frequency [125]. In relation to macronutrient composition, meals are often composed of more fat and less carbohydrate during Ramadan than during the rest of the year [126,127].
...
Aside from the potentially beneficial effects discussed above, some studies have noted adverse effects associated with Ramadan fasting. Ramadan fasting has been shown to negatively impact nocturnal sleep by increasing sleep latency and decreasing both slow wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep [142,143]. Lack of sleep can cause irritability [144] and has been shown to lead to an increase in the intake of stimulants such as coffee and tea during the month of Ramadan [145]. Ramadan fasting may lead to ulcer complications, as studies have reported increased gastric acidity during the day, with altered circadian patterns of levels of plasma gastrin, gastric pH, glucose and calcium [146]. Other potential adverse health effects associated with Ramadan fasting include energy level imbalances [124], dehydration [147], decreased athletic performance [148], and altered circadian fluctuations in hormone levels [149].

Another useful thing to look at is monks in Greece (Athos)

How do Mount Athos Monks stay so healthy?

What seems to be the key is a diet that alternates between olive oil and non olive oil days, and plenty of plant proteins
...
It's not only what we call the Mediterranean diet, but also eating the old-fashioned way. Simple meals at regular intervals are very important.
...
They eat two meals a day. The 'first meal' lasts 10 minutes; the 'second meal' also lasts 10 minutes," Simon reported. "There's no meat and no dinner table conversation - the only sound is a monk reading from sacred texts.
...
The health of 1,500 monks was studied between 1994 and 2007. None had developed lung or bowel cancer. Only 11 had prostate cancer, a fraction of the international rate, according to the The Independent.

Their diet is (source)

Monday, Wednesday, and Friday:
* No olive oil, wine, or dairy is eaten

Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday:
* It's Salad Days
* Breakfast is hard bread & tea
* Lunch is pasta or rice, vegetables & olive oil
* Dinner is lentils, fruit, salad, olive oil, and red wine

Feast Days & Holidays:
* Fish or seafood

Fast Days--103 days a year (based on my calculations--there could be more)
* Strict vegan diet

[fred]

Im not trying to adhere to that version.

Yes I just wanted to clear that up, since fred said this about your pattern of eating, which is incorrect

That is precisely (a Wai version of) the Ori Hofmekler's Warrior Diet

Did you read the book dime?

During the undereating phase of the Warrior diet, Hofmekler recommends to eat "live food", that is vegetables and fruits (raw or juiced). So yes, what RRM does is exactly a Wai version of the Warrior diet.