IF-diet with Wai foods

Fasting during the morning and (some part of) the afternoon, eating at night
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fictor
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IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by fictor »

In a few weeks I am starting a very interesting experiment. I have been on the Wai diet for several years now (3? 4? I lost count). Mostly I am satisfied with the diet. Mainly because it keeps me relatively free of acne. A few small pimples now and then, and some blackheads, but it is not affecting my life in the way it used to, before starting the Wai diet. The Wai foods keeps me satisfied, so I dont really crave other foods. I maintain a physique that is above average when it comes to muscularity and fat/muscle ratio. Still, I am not 100% happy with my looks. I still have minor acne, and my fat percentage is not as low as I want it to be. I am not overweight in any way, but I do not have defined ab muscles (never really had that low body fat percentage), and this is something I want to have.

Recently I came across the website leangains.com. It is mainly a blog, written by swedish trainer and fitness writer Martin Berkhan. He advocates a regimen that consists of a high protein diet, intermittent fastin (fasting for 16 hours+ per day, eating for 8 hours- per day). Both himself and his clients have incredible results, and his writings and theories seems to be backed by science and research, much in the same way as the Wai diet. I have adopted many of his training advices already (and it seems to work fine), but his take on nutrition differs quite a lot from the Wai-way, so I have been very sceptical. This weekend however, I was on a trip to London, and an idea hit me; I will try the leangains diet, only with Wai foods, as an experiment. Worst case, it dosent work for me, and I go back to the diet I was on before.

The Pros:
-It will probably help me to build more musle
-It will probably help me to loose some fat and be more lean/ripped
-It will be good for my teeth (eating only 1-3 times a day + not so much fruit acid)
-It will be super practical! (not having to carry foods around all the time etc.)
-It will probably be a lot cheaper (as of now I am spending about 1700 $ per month on foods)
-It will be an exciting experiment! :D

The cons:
-It might give me (more) acne

Neutral:
-Even if it does not give me acne, or onky a little, it will probably not improve my skin.

Why I think it might actually work:
On this diet I will eat one or two large meals, late in the day. These meals will contain a lot of protein (all clean protein, for raw meat, fish and egg yolks). Then I go to sleep and digest all this foods. According to the Wai theory, my blood protein levels will rise, and protein will leak into the lymph-system and be deposited in the skin. The morning after, redundant protein will be used as energy (and in some degree for tissue repair that was not completed during the night). When skipping breakfast (continuing the 16 hours fast), the need for energy will be greater than when supplying carbs and fats for breakfast, and I theorize that this might lead to more of the redundant protein being spent, rather than deposited in the skin. Also, not eating until after lunch time gives me 5-6 hours of oportunity to drink a lot of low mineral water (without interfering with digestion), to flush out redundant protein. I will then have one pre workout meal, not consisting of much more protein than I can take per now, and then have another window of maybe 3-5 hours of drinking water. This means I can drink a lot of water throughout the day.

Why it might not work:
I will increase my protein intake to about 6 times what it is today (at least). This very well might cause water retention to a degree that staying off dirty protein and salt, plus drinking a lot of low mineral water can not combat.

All in all I am very curious to find out if this is a diet that could work. If it does, It will change my life (see list of pros above), so my fingers and toes are crossed!!!

I will not start the experiment right away, as I have two business trips coming up. If the experiment make me break out bigtime, this is a bad thing for my confidence in business meetings, plus I dont want to add to many other factors into the mix when doing this. I will probably start in 2-4 weeks, and will report back here.

Wish me luck! :)
dime
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by dime »

I've read about the leangains before, and I'm also curious how it goes for you (especially the muscle gain part). I'd never try it because I believe eating so much protein is not optimal. But it would be more convenient for sure.

I believe it works for fat loss because you simply can not squeeze as much calories in 8 hours as you would normally eat in 16 hours. I'm not so convinced it's superior for muscle gain though, as I don't see huge difference between spreading carbs/fat throughout the whole day and eating all protein at once (wai way), and the leangains squeezing carbs/fat/protein all in half a day.

ps. 1700 $ for food per month, WOW!!!
fictor
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by fictor »

dime wrote:I'd never try it because I believe eating so much protein is not optimal.
I think 3 grams + per kilo body weight is a lot, so I start out at 1,5 g/per kilo and see how it goes.
dime wrote: I believe it works for fat loss because you simply can not squeeze as much calories in 8 hours as you would normally eat in 16 hours.
Yes, that is prabably the main reason. There is however also some other positive aspects with the 16 hours fast, if Berkhan is right.
dime wrote: I'm not so convinced it's superior for muscle gain though, as I don't see huge difference between spreading carbs/fat throughout the whole day and eating all protein at once (wai way), and the leangains squeezing carbs/fat/protein all in half a day.
dime wrote: My goal is not extreme muscle growth. I would like some increase in muscle mass of course, but the main reason for doing this experiment is that I want to loose some fat to gain some definition, and it would be unbelieveably practical to eat twice a day instead of 20+ times a day :)
dime wrote: ps. 1700 $ for food per month, WOW!!!
Yep, Norway is an expensive country, espescially when it comes to fruits.
dime
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by dime »

1.5 g/kg sounds reasonable, some days when I eat fish, beef and eggs I also come close to that much protein.
The main problem I see with 16 hours of fasting is that the liver will run out of glycogen and then there will be some catabolism to get glucose for the brain and other organs that need it. Not optimal.
It would be better if you get some minimal amount of carbs in the 8 hours before your 8 hours of feeding start, like 50-100 grams via some orange juice, to minimize usage of protein for energy purposes.
overkees
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by overkees »

Well, I did intermittent fasting prior to wai and wow, you lose fat very rapidly on it when you combine it with cardio.

If you do IF you will train your muscles to hold on to a lot more glycogen. So for endurance training it's optimal.

I still do fasts every now and then to lose that last hard stubborn belly and hip fat. I'm very very close to a six pack, yay.

But when considering if it's optimal? I don't know man, you will burn proteins for glucose and rubbish is created inside your body. So I think it's better to do a intermittent fasting for short periods. Then switching back to normal for a while and doing intermettitent fasting again after.
fictor
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by fictor »

overkees wrote: But when considering if it's optimal? I don't know man, you will burn proteins for glucose and rubbish is created inside your body.
If by rubbish you mean urea, then yes. But as long as it dosent cause acne I dont really care if it is optimal for general health. If I can get away
with eating only two times a day, get a sixpack and have at least as clear skin as now, that would be awesome :)

If it does not work, I will swith back to Wai, but with calorie restriction. With my current diet I dont loose belly fat (really the only place I have much
fat at all), and that is not axceptable to me.
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RRM
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by RRM »

fictor wrote:
overkees wrote: But when considering if it's optimal? I don't know man, you will burn proteins for glucose and rubbish is created inside your body.
If by rubbish you mean urea, then yes.
And before its converted into urea, its ammonium.
A high load of ammonium is a high load of mild toxins.
If I can get away with eating only two times a day, get a sixpack
The less frequent your meals, the bigger their size.
The bigger their size, the greater the impact on insulin, and on storing glycogen and bodyfat.
With bigger meals, you will store more bodyfat.
So, to get that sixpack, you will have to burn more bodyfat in between meals, when eating fewer meals.
And burning bodyfat comes with burning muscle for energy.
Thats why bodybuilders use a metabolic (building both muscle and fat) and a catabolic (getting lean and losing some of that muscle) phase.
With my current diet I dont loose belly fat (really the only place I have much
fat at all), and that is not axceptable to me.
How many meals a day? (your current diet)
fictor
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by fictor »

RRM wrote: And before its converted into urea, its ammonium.
A high load of ammonium is a high load of mild toxins.
I know, but as I said, my primary goal is a lean body and as clear skin as possible.
RRM wrote: The less frequent your meals, the bigger their size.
The bigger their size, the greater the impact on insulin, and on storing glycogen and bodyfat.
With bigger meals, you will store more bodyfat.
So, to get that sixpack, you will have to burn more bodyfat in between meals, when eating fewer meals.
And burning bodyfat comes with burning muscle for energy.
Thats why bodybuilders use a metabolic (building both muscle and fat) and a catabolic (getting lean and losing some of that muscle) phase.
With the leangains program you get both the metabolic and the catabolic phase ever day. This is a picture of the creator of the program; http://tinyurl.com/cyu25f7
His clients look varying degrees of the same, with little to very little body fat. On his site (leangains.com) he states that having many meals a day is best for weight
loss is a myth, and that 1-3 meals a day is optimal. I havent reed all the research behind his claims, but he backs up most of them with pubmed articles and the like.
RRM wrote: How many meals a day? (your current diet)
10-20 I guess. It depends. When having juice it might even be many more. usually each meal is one fruit or less (with a sip of OO). I also eat 1-2 salads a day consisting
of 1 avocado with tomatoes.
overkees
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by overkees »

This works only if you workout. If you do IF you will store much more muscle glycogen. So if you do big cardio sessions you will need a lot of energy to refill the glycogen stores.

That's the whole trick behind this IF. If your glycogen stores are so depleted it can't be filled in one meal, because you're full in no time. Your stomache is not so big as your whole glycogen store. SO in that small window of time it's impossible to gain weight.

Eating small meals is certainly not a myth, but breaking through your set point weight is almost impossible with wai. I haven't got the build for a six pack. My body fat is very low (9 - 10 percent) and still there is no six pack, only very small contours. I can only get the six pack by gaining more muscle mass in my whole body with fasting every now and then.
fictor
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by fictor »

overkees wrote:This works only if you workout. If you do IF you will store much more muscle glycogen. So if you do big cardio sessions you will need a lot of energy to refill the glycogen stores.
The Leangains-guy does not do any cardio, just heavy lifting 3 times a week. Leangains differs a little from other IF-routines.
overkees wrote: Eating small meals is certainly not a myth
I agree that it is logic to assume that eating small meals all the time is better. Berkhan ctough, claims it is a myth. Here is why: http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-te ... unked.html
overkees wrote: I haven't got the build for a six pack. My body fat is very low (9 - 10 percent) and still there is no six pack, only very small contours. I can only get the six pack by gaining more muscle mass in my whole body with fasting every now and then.
Everyone has the same muscles. If the body fat is low enough, everyone will have a sixpack/eightpack/defined stomach muscles. If not, you probably wouldnt be able to stand up ;)
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by RRM »

fictor wrote: With the leangains program you get both the metabolic and the catabolic phase ever day.
They dont happen at the same time, so you first build up, and then you break it down again.
That will only work if the first exceeds the latter.
This is a picture of the creator of the program; http://tinyurl.com/cyu25f7
You can have a perfect body / do bodybuilding on virtually any diet.
Its all about discipline.
His clients look varying degrees of the same
You mean the ones that show their pics...
he states that having many meals a day is best for weight loss is a myth
Based on this:
1. He claims that this myth is based on "stoking the metabolic fire", but thats not the case.
2. He also thinks its also about 'creating less hunger so you eat less calories', which is not the case either.
3. He says its also not about blood sugar, as your body can easily manage the right blood glucose level without food.
Of course it can, but the issue is: where does that glucose come from? Partly from muscles.
4. "Myth: Fasting tricks the body into "starvation mode"" and goes on saying that 'metabolic rate is not affected',
but that is not what the 'starvation mode' is about; its about trying to hold on to bodyfat and increase cravings.
5. Of course its a myth that you can use only 30 grams of protein / meal... duh...
6. "Myth: Fasting causes muscle loss". ... "Few studies... None of them are relevant"
"Only in prolonged fasting does protein catabolism become an issue".
Actually, its ALWAYS an issue. Just the level of it varies. Does he really think that normally protein is not used for energy???
7. "Myth: Skipping breakfast is bad and will make you fat". I agree that this is a myth indeed.
8. "Myth: Fasting increases cortisol." Of course its a myth.
9. "Myth: Fasted training sucks. You'll lose muscle and have no strength." I agree thats a myth; all you need to do is replenish glycogen.
10. Myth: "Eat breakfast like a king, lunch a queen, dinner like a pauper." - no need to say anything here.

Now, what IS this 'myth' based on?
Consuming energy frequently is about preventing the breakdown of muscle protein for energy in between meals (Berkhan thinks this only happens during prolonged fasting, but muscles, just like bones are constantly re-modelled 24/7. And where does Berkhan think that all redundant protein goes too?)
This 'myth' is also about preventing storing new bodyfat after every big meal. (Berkhan doesnt talk about this)
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by RRM »

overkees wrote:My body fat is very low (9 - 10 percent) and still there is no six pack
then there is still water retention, probably...
I can only get the six pack by gaining more muscle mass
Like Fictor said: You already have the sixpack.
Its there, but just not visible.
If the sixpack was not there, it would mean you have no abdominal muscles.
All you need to do, is make those abs visible.
overkees
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by overkees »

Yeah I know everyone has a six pack, some people just have other fat distrubutions then other ppz, thats what I'm trying to say. And I need to have a really low body fat percentage for it to show.

Am I right that after a day of going to the sauna you will lose a lot of water in your body? So that after the sauna I can see what my six pack is without the water retention? Well, there is a really small 4 pack showing, but still no six pack. This means that I still have some fat covering it.

I've seen body builder types that still have no six packs:

Image
[img]http://clay_b864.tripod.com/CoeBoyer/BCoe0004.jpg[/img]

And come on he has seriously low body fat percentage he won the title fcol! Body builders train dry, so he knows about the water retention. Some people just have a stupid distribution.
dime
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by dime »

Guys you seem very obsessed with these six packs.. :) The guy on the pic is at around 10% btw. Here you can see his abs:

[img]http://clay_b864.tripod.com/CoeBoyer/BCoe0028.jpg[/img]
overkees
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Re: IF-diet with Wai foods

Post by overkees »

It's just that I like to set goals to work to. And when I started this goal I was around 12-13 percent body fat.

It seemed to me It wasn't such a big deal, but boy was I wrong it's very hard work :D. Being around 10 and still little reward. But I've bought the hurom juicer, so 100% wai is gonna happen in 2 weeks. So watch out, here I come!
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