replenishing glycogen after depleting activity

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
ketodog
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replenishing glycogen after depleting activity

Postby ketodog » Tue 20 Mar 2007 21:31

Hi RRM:

If I eat bananas right after a glycogen depleting activity, the amount I FEEL like eating is the same amount necessary to REPLENISH muscle glycogen depots and no more, or I can maybe ingest too much energy for my actual needs?

If I eat too much raw protein in one sitting, and my glycogen depots aren´t completelly full, the redundant protein will go to replenish glycogen or will be stored as fat (if FA are present, of course)?
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RRM
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Re: replenishing glycogen after depleting activity

Postby RRM » Wed 21 Mar 2007 14:54

ketodog wrote:If I eat bananas right after a glycogen depleting activity, the amount I FEEL like eating is the same amount necessary to REPLENISH muscle glycogen depots and no more, or I can maybe ingest too much energy for my actual needs?
If your glycogen depots are depleted, you will feel quite hungry, but how much you want to eat also depends on the food you eat, and how fast you eat it, as the body also wants to prevent sugar spikes.
If the intake is confined to one meal, we generally do not ingest enough energy for complete repletion; it takes a few consequetive meals.
So, you may consume too much in one meal regarding blood sugar spikes, and at the same time not enough to completely replenish glycogen.
For more efficient glycogen repletion you better focus on doing so a few consequetive meals, and not by eating too much in one sitting.
If I eat too much raw protein in one sitting, and my glycogen depots aren´t completelly full, the redundant protein will go to replenish glycogen or will be stored as fat (if FA are present, of course)?
Its hardly ever "either / or"; in general its "both", with varying ratios.
But, yes, until glycogen depots are completely filled, some redundant protein (glucogenic amino acids) will be stored as glycogen indeed (as long as the liver glycogen depot is not completely filled). The ketogenic amino acids are more readily stored as fat. (along with glucogenic amino acids as glycerol)
ketodog
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Postby ketodog » Wed 21 Mar 2007 15:38

Thanks RRM!
ketodog
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Postby ketodog » Fri 23 Mar 2007 18:00

So, you may consume too much in one meal regarding blood sugar spikes, and at the same time not enough to completely replenish glycogen.
RRM, do you agree that doing this diet with too little fat can bring problems? I have read in the old forum and in this one too, that some like to eat too much sugars and too little fat, based on ¨listening to your body¨.

But I think that in some cases if I listen to my body I would eat 1 kilogram of bananas in one sitting. But if I eat FAT simultaneously with fruit, I feel satisfied and don´t need to eat so much sugars.

I think it`s important to clarify that if you are not following the rule ¨1 gram of fat for every 2 grams of sugars¨ then you ARE NOT following Wai´s diet and if you develop problems such as tooth erosions or blood sugar related ailments, you cannot blame Wai´s diet.

In my case, I already told you that I ate too much bananas, based on a statement of Wai in the old forum, and developed a tooth erosion, but because I didn´t ate enough fat. So strictly speaking, I WAS NOT on Wai´s diet.

Also, I don´t consider this diet to be a ¨high-carb diet¨, due tot the fact that the calories coming from fat are in a ratio of 1:1 to carbs. Most people eating junk eat much more calories from refined carbs than from fats.

The ratio of carbs/fat in this diet is even lower than the one of The Zone diet, which is considered t be ¨moderate in carbs¨ and is based on consuming a ratio of 40:30:30 carbs, fats, protein, by calories.
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Postby RRM » Fri 23 Mar 2007 18:33

ketodog wrote:RRM, do you agree that doing this diet with too little fat can bring problems?
Sure. The less fat, the more difficult to get it right.
if I eat FAT simultaneously with fruit, I feel satisfied and don´t need to eat so much sugars.
Exactly. Fat makes it a lot easier.
I think it`s important to clarify that if you are not following the rule ¨1 gram of fat for every 2 grams of sugars¨ then you ARE NOT following Wai´s diet
Well, for some that is essential, indeed, but not for everyone. Some do well with consuming less fat.
Also, I don´t consider this diet to be a ¨high-carb diet¨
Indeed. Its certainly not a high carb diet, but it may be for some.
The ratio of carbs/fat in this diet is even lower than the one of The Zone diet, which is considered t be ¨moderate in carbs¨ and is based on consuming a ratio of 40:30:30 carbs, fats, protein, by calories.
Yes, in comparison to other diets one could just say its a low protein diet.
ketodog
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Postby ketodog » Wed 28 Mar 2007 01:55

RRM, I think I have found the best nutritional approach to sustain my activity levels while achieving the best body composition.

I eat carbs (around 70-100 grams from fruit) ONLY right after my workouts. Despite I am eating less calories than before (less fat and protein and more carbs) my performance in the gym increased.

Could it be that the carbs I eat go almost entirely to the muscle tissue (studies show that levels of glycogen-synthesis in skeletal muscle is greatly increased after exercise) and then during the rest of the time my other tissues utilize mainly stored fat? This based on the fact that the muscles cannot provide glucose to the blood, unlike the liver. So the glucose I eat after a workout prepares my muscles for my next training session 10 hours later.

I am surprised that despite such a low caloric intake when compared to my previous diets have inceased my performance and make my body fat to literally fly off my body. The most reasonable explanation has to be this, that only my muscles - not my brain - are soaking up carbs like a sponge and almacenating them, as my carb intake is pretty low when compared to other diets, so my other tissues are probably relying mainly on fats.

The same as another post I have read on this forum, despite my much lower protein intake I didn´t lose muscle mass, so probably you are right when you say that we don´t need high protein intakes to build muscle.

I feel MUCH better like this than with any other diet I have tried in the past, both low carb diets and moderate to high carb approaches when ingested outside the post-workout period.

If most people are like me and unless I am a genetic freak, I encourage every active individual interested in improving body composition and performance to try this approach!
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RRM
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Postby RRM » Wed 28 Mar 2007 07:56

ketodog wrote:Could it be that the carbs I eat go almost entirely to the muscle tissue
Sure, thats normal after intense physical activity.
and then during the rest of the time my other tissues utilize mainly stored fat?
No, because you always need sugars as well. They come from dietary protein, liver glycogen, muscle protein and fat (glycerol). You cant avoid that.
This based on the fact that the muscles cannot provide glucose to the blood, unlike the liver.
Not muscle glycogen, but they do provide muscle protein for energy (which is worse, of course) when your blood sugar goes down.
So the glucose I eat after a workout prepares my muscles for my next training session 10 hours later.


True.
I am surprised that despite such a low caloric intake when compared to my previous diets have inceased my performance and make my body fat to literally fly off my body.
Consuming less protein you retain less water, which makes you more ripped, but it isnt the fat flying off your body; its water.
If you are consuming a little too little calories, its muscle protein as well.
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Postby Oscar » Wed 28 Mar 2007 10:53

To put it in a simple way: one has a basic level of fat and sugar energy which is always used, even with low activity. The higher the activity level is, the more sugar energy is needed, but the amount of fat energy needed more or less stays the same.

Even in rest the skeletal muscles use up 50% of the energy needed.
ganbare
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Postby ganbare » Wed 28 Mar 2007 13:54

Could someone explain to me exactly how fat and sugars are metabolized in the blood? What mechanisms keep the body regulating glucose and fat at the same time?
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Postby RRM » Sun 08 Apr 2007 19:20

The discussion about retaining water has been split off
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Postby RRM » Sun 08 Apr 2007 19:23

ganbare wrote:Could someone explain to me exactly how fat and sugars are metabolized in the blood? What mechanisms keep the body regulating glucose and fat at the same time?
Thats a big question!
Lets start very small.
There are receptors that constantly measure the level of fats, proteins and sugars in the blood, and upon their signal, regulating hormones are released, adjusting the levels of the various energy-containing molecules in the blood.
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Postby avalon » Mon 09 Apr 2007 14:17

Ketodog wrote:
The same as another post I have read on this forum, despite my much lower protein intake I didn´t lose muscle mass, so probably you are right when you say that we don´t need high protein intakes to build muscle.
And it reinforces Dr Graham's stance as well as other veggie/vegan athletes- about lower protein needs. Interesting.
ketodog
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Postby ketodog » Tue 10 Apr 2007 03:45

Yeah Avalon, this is interesting. Everybody should figure out how much protein to eat. There are very active people who say that if they eat less than 1 gram per pound of BW (a high protein intake) they lose muscle mass.
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Postby Seth » Tue 10 Apr 2007 06:53

ketodog wrote:Yeah Avalon, this is interesting. Everybody should figure out how much protein to eat. There are very active people who say that if they eat less than 1 gram per pound of BW (a high protein intake) they lose muscle mass.
It appears to vary. I am quite active, but have found that I don't really get satisfaction eating 5 eggs every day. In the last month, I hardly ever felt a craving for anything proteinous. If I eat one egg yolk, I often find myself having to nearly force myself to eat the other four. This all has lead me to believe that my body. if I am to listen to it as I have been told to do, really doesn't have as much need for protein as the sample diet states. I am going to cut back the amount of protein and see what happens for a couple of weeks. There was one week where I ate no fish or eggs or any other protein and I observed no ill effects. As long as I have enough fat and carbs, my body seems quite content.
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Postby RRM » Tue 10 Apr 2007 09:14

It varies indeed.
If you are not that interested in maintaining a fair amount of muscle mass, you dont need much fish/egg yolks at all, indeed, as fruits also contain protein.
Also, on a very high protein diet you will loose muscle mass at all moments that your blood sugar level is low.
Proper energy management has a very strong protein-sparing effect.

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