amino acids.. to replace whey protein

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
Rivera
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Post by Rivera »

RRM wrote:Its true, mercury readily binds with methionine.
Of course we should prevent a build up of mercury.
Methionine however, is essential. We need it.
This diet contains relatively little protein, so that we ingest relatively little methionine.
By taking extra methionine, we would only compensate for that lower intake of methionine.
On a normal diet people generally consume at least 100 grams of protein.
If we get that methionine from food instead of supplements, still it would bind with mercury?
By the way, is there a food over-expressed in methionine and phenylalanine? It would be easier.
30 or 40 is very little.
Depending on protein quality, your build, and your activities, it may be enough for some
If in one day, you get more proteins than you need, does the body will stock and use them the next day, if your intake is lower?

I checked for some supplements. It's capsule but I don't know if it's liquid or powder inside. You talked about cysteine earlier so as I don't know if it we should take it, too I included it:
L-methionine
http://www.vitacost.com/NutriCology-L-Methionine
http://www.iherb.com/carlson-labs-l-met ... um=f2&at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-L-Met ... /1712?at=0

L-phenylalanine
http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-L-Phe ... /1722?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Bluebonnet-Nutriti ... 11715?at=0

L-cysteine (all, except the last, have N-acetyl with it. Is it ok?)
http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-N-A-C
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/b ... -1216#tab1
http://www.iherb.com/Country-Life-Bioch ... /1730?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-N-A-C ... /8681?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Bluebonnet-Nutriti ... 14859?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Bluebonnet-Nutriti ... 14686?at=0

What do you think about them?
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote: If we get that methionine from food instead of supplements, still it would bind with mercury?
Yes.
By the way, is there a food over-expressed in methionine and phenylalanine? It would be easier.
http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/protein.htm
Brazil nuts are number 1.
If in one day, you get more proteins than you need, does the body will stock and use them the next day, if your intake is lower?
Yes, there is no separate storage place, but the level of amino acids in the blood
can fluctuate from 100% to 900%!!!
Which means that when you consume much protein one day,
you will still be able to profit from that the next day.
But if you are very susceptible to acne, that temporary increase may cause new acne.
I checked for some supplements. It's capsule but I don't know if it's liquid or powder inside.
You need liquid free methionine.
They must be free.
and also not a dissolved powder.
If it doesnt say "free" very specifically, it certainly isnt.
If it doesnt say "liquid", it isnt.
You talked about cysteine earlier so as I don't know if it we should take it
Not, because cysteine cannot be converted into methionine,
whereas all redundant methionine will be converted into cysteine.


These are not liquid free amino acids.
(one claims 'free', but thats not possible given the rest of the (solid) ingredients)
Rivera
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Post by Rivera »

These are not liquid free amino acids
While I try to find good ones, is it ok to take these while? Except acne, any bad health effects?
Compared to these, Whey proteins supplements are worse, right?

About muscles gain: how long after taking these aminos should we expect to see results in muscle size?
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote:While I try to find good ones, is it ok to take these while? Except acne, any bad health effects?
Only acne.
Compared to these, Whey proteins supplements are worse, right?
Absolutely.
The protein quality of whey protein is very poor,
so that you really need to take lots of it to have any effect at all.
About muscles gain: how long after taking these aminos should we expect to see results in muscle size?
You will only see effects if there was a relative lack of protein.
If you always consumed quite some protein, you will see no effects.
If you ate little protein, you will see effects within weeks,
as if you are eating twice as much fish now.
And, of course, you need to be working out properly...
Rivera
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Post by Rivera »

So 1,000 mg methionine maximally, and 500 mg phenylalanine per day taken together at the same moment?

By the way, are these two missing in usual starch/cooked/processed food diets?
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote:So 1,000 mg methionine maximally, and 500 mg phenylalanine per day taken together at the same moment?
If you take only 500 mg methionine, it doesnt make sense to take phenylalanine as well.
Only if you take 1,000 mg methionine, its useful to take 500 mg phenylalanine as well.
Yes, they are best taken together, and together with a proteinaceous meal
(chicken, fish, egg yolk, beef); remain physically inactive afterwards.
By the way, are these two missing in usual starch/cooked/processed food diets?
In virtually all diets, unless you eat grains only.
Rivera
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Post by Rivera »

If you take only 500 mg methionine, it doesnt make sense to take phenylalanine as well.
Why?

Tryptophane seems to be lacking too. Why we don't need to take this one too?
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote:
If you take only 500 mg methionine, it doesnt make sense to take phenylalanine as well.
Why?
Because even with that extra 500 mg methionine, the couple Met / Cys
is still 'the weakest link' / most scarse.
Only when you take more than 500 mg Met,
the couple Phe / Tyr will also get to that point.
Tryptophane seems to be lacking too.
No.
What makes you think so?
Rivera
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Post by Rivera »

RRM wrote:No.
What makes you think so?
On the "Fruit Contains All Required Protein" page, it seems so; or it's me who doesn't understand the charts lol
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Post by RRM »

Tryptophan requirements for adults (indexed to meth/cys = 100)
27 according to FAO/WHO
23 according to Rose 1957
56 according to Rose
24 according to Hegsted

Under the header 'weakest link in natural foods',
the availability of tryptophan is displayed (indexed to meth/cys = 100).
For example:

25 Brazil nuts
327 Banana
93 Average of fruits

53 salmon
74 egg yolk

So, according to 2 methods, tryptophan is never the weakest link,
not even in a single food item.
According to one method (FAO/WHO) there is just one food item with tryptophan as the weakest link,
but that would require you to eat Brazil nuts ONLY (no other food whatsoever),
which, of course is impossible.
Only according to Rose there are a few foods that have tryptophan as its weakest link,
but then again, this would require you to eat only Salmon and very specific fruits: Brazil nuts, peach, mandarins and dried figs.
The moment you would start eating other fish, or meat or egg yolks and other fruits as well, then tryptophan no longer is the weakest link.

The amino acid balance is to be calculated on a daily basis,
including all foods consumed.
Then it doesnt matter what method you use, as
the combination of methionine / cysteine is always the weakest link.
Unless you eat very specific foods only, and just according to 1 out of 4 methods.
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Mr. PC
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Post by Mr. PC »

So does this mean that there are 27 Tryptophan Aminos for every 100 meth/cys aminos? I don't understand, to me that seems like Tryptophan should be the weakest link, and that's the impression I got from the wai pages (or at least that it was close to the other two, so that to have significant results a person would have to supplement it as well as methionine).

Or is the bodies requirements for Tryptophan lower?

Either way I would figure the easiest (and best) way to supplement would be to eat some bananas.
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Mr. PC wrote:So does this mean that there are 27 Tryptophan Aminos for every 100 meth/cys aminos?
No, it means that if you index the amino acid requirements,
and make methionine/cysteine equal to 100 (for comparison reasons),
you will need only 27 tryptophan (according to the FAO/WHO).

If you then index the amino acid composition of a number of foods
(again methionine/cysteine = 100)
It appears that the availability of tryptophan is greater than that of Met/Cys, because in those foods, tryptophan is greater than 27.
(while Meth/Cys = 100)

Just check the availability of tryptophan in these indexed foods (Meth/Cys = 100),
and you see that they are all (mostly much) greater than 30,
except for Brazil nuts and horse meat.
or at least that it was close to the other two
not even close.
The availability of tryptophan in fruits, for example
is on average 93,
which is more than 3-fold the requirements! (27, according to the FAO/WHO)
whereas the availability of Meth/Cys is equal to the requirements
(100 = 100)
Also in animal food like egg yolks, fish and beef the availability of tryptophan
is twice as great as the requirement (compared to Meth/Cys).
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Mr. PC
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Post by Mr. PC »

Ah, that clears things up, thankyou.
I had been under the impression that we wanted all amino acids to be relatively equal, which is why I came to that conclusion.

I never came across a list on the wai site stating how many of each Amino acids we require (relatively). Is there one?

What about for people who suffer from depression? Would taking Tryptophan supplements help them?
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

Mr. PC wrote: I never came across a list on the wai site stating how many of each Amino acids we require (relatively). Is there one?
You mean like the first table in http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html ?
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Post by RRM »

Mr. PC wrote: I had been under the impression that we wanted all amino acids to be relatively equal, which is why I came to that conclusion.
All amino acids to be relatively equally represented, relative to our amino acid requirements, indeed.
And that is why you dont need extra tryptophan,
as it is more abundantly represented than the scarcest ones (methionine/cysteine)
You dont need to compare the number of tryptophan to the most abundantly represented (lysine, leucine, valine),
but to those under-represented (methionine / cysteine).
Everything above that bottom level (Met/Cys) is useless (except for energy).
What about for people who suffer from depression? Would taking Tryptophan supplements help them?
There are more factors at play.
Taking tryptophan does not fix these.
What you need to do is explained here: http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/index.html
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