Muscle-mass, working out, testosterone and acne

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
fictor
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Muscle-mass, working out, testosterone and acne

Post by fictor »

Ok, we all know that physical activities like resistance training and so forth,
causes the testosterone levels to raise in our body. This can lead to
increased sebum production and even water retention, the two factors
that, according to the Wai-theory, must be present for acne to form.
Conclusion: elevated testosterone can cause acne by itself, even if
one eats no munch foods and stay within your own 'safe' amount of
raw protein.

All this in mind, one can assume that heavy weight lifting is not
a good idea for most acne sufferers. For me, and I am sure I am
not the only one, it is rather painful to sit around and feel my muscle
mass decreasing, day after day.

So, I asked RRM how he works out, without causing a testosterone
mayhem in his body. This discussion can be found in this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=1821
To be very short, RRM does isolating exercises, one specific
muscle each day, 1-2 sets to failure. About 25-50 reps.
That means not very heavy weights/resistance.

I tried this for a while, but not long enough to see if it does the trick,
because I got repetitive strain injury in my wrist (because of
working with a computer all day) and had to stop weight lifting
until my wrist gets better (I am currently doing shock wave treatment
at a physiotherapist.

While not working out because of my wrist injury (except some sit ups,
walking and some cross country skiing) I have had even more time
to think about working out :)

I have a question, or rather a hypothesis, about how to combat
the workout>testosterone>acne issue.

First, can someone tell me which of the following is true (or is both?)

1. Heavy workouts causes a temporary increase in serum testosterone.

2. A person who has a lot of muscle mass has constantly higher
serum testosterone levels.

If only the first statement is true, then RRM's method makes sense.
It engages only one muscle at the time and does not put the body
under massive stress for an extended period of time, like conventional
weight lifting does. On the other hand, it does probably cause some,
even if very minor, increase in testosterone levels.

My theory is that it might be better to do a really heavy, full blown,
full body hardcore power building session, but only once a week.
I am talking about a real macho workout, bench press, squats,
dead lifts, chins, dips, leg press and so on. All the works, all the
muscle groups. This will indeed cause a much higher temporary
increase in testosterone levels than RRM's workouts does.

My point is, while RRM's method requires you to work out every day
(leading to some raise in testosterone levels on a daily basis), this
allows you to work out only once a week. Some precautions can be
taken to counteract the temporary increase in testosterone levels
and the increase in sebum production and the possible water retention
caused by it, such as taking sauna/steam bath the same day as working
out and the day after, drinking more water than usual etc. Keep in mind
that this increase in testosterone levels will only take place once a week.
The rest of the week, one can practise 'active rest', like walking, yoga,
stretching or slow paced biking etc. These are not testosterone boosting
activities, and helps the body to heal the muscle tissue broken down
by the heavy workout.

I know such a training program can effectively build muscle and strength,
as I have done a similar training regimen before. The problem is, I was
not then on the Wai diet (had lots of/some acne all the time) and
therefore I do not know if this causes a bigger testosterone issue,
over all, than doing RRM's workout plan.

I would have loved to test this on myself, and probably will, but
right now I have the wrist injury, plus I am not 100% clear yet.
I still get blackheads on my back/shoulders, and some in my face
and the odd pimple here and there.

Right now I am just throwing this out there, to see if anyone has
an opinion or even better, someone wants to put my theory
to the test :)
fictor
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed 09 Jan 2008 19:35

Post by fictor »

And one more thing: If also the second statement is true
(large muscle mass permanently increases testosterone levels)
If so, my theory is not only wrong, but acne sufferers should
express caution even with RRM's workout plan, perhaps spend
as much of their time as possible on their (fat) asses :)
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Good thinking.
However, there is a problem: a temporary increase in water retention can already cause acne. Unfortunately, acne is caused 'in a minute', while it may take a week or 2 to heal...
Even more so, the water retention is about osmosis, and therefore its particularly the shift in water retention that is harmful, much more so than when constantly elevated somewhat.

For the same reason, eating a hamburger will have much more harmful effects on your skin when you normally eat 100% raw, compared to someone who normally eats 50% raw or 100% cooked.

So, I think that its better to spread that extra testosterone over 7 days, than to let all that testosterone peak in one day.
fictor
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Post by fictor »

Thank you for your answer RRM :)
RRM wrote:However, there is a problem: a temporary increase in water retention can already cause acne. Unfortunately, acne is caused 'in a minute'
But what about counter acting this with sauna/steam bath right after the workout, and the day after? This should take care of the temporary water retention, dont you think?
RRM wrote: So, I think that its better to spread that extra testosterone over 7 days, than to let all that testosterone peak in one day.
You are probably right, I just thought that it is easier to counter act
the temporary water retention when you know exactly when it is coming.
I mean, you can of course take sauna/steam bath every day, but that
is probably not too healthy for ones skin :)

Also, do you know about the two 'statements' I made?
I mean, does a high muscle mass cause constantly higher
testosterone levels?
fictor
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Post by fictor »

OK, even though I do not feel my last theory is yet fully discussed and
ready to be thrown in the thrash, I will post yet another theory on how to
build more muscle than with RRM's sugested workout (sorry RRM, it
just is not effective enough for me to not try and search for other
possibilities ;) )

So, here we go. Fictors workout theory 0.2 :)

A few years ago I came across a training systen called "German Volume
Training". Now, this is not playing german techno on high volume while
working out, although this might help some in pushing themselves to
the limit :)

Put simply, GVT is doing 10 reps, ten sets (10x10)
Totally, this makes up 100 reps. This is the same as
in RRM's 2x50 workout. In GVT one never trains to
failure though.

Now, I know this program can build a lot of muscle, because
I have seen it with my own eyes. The way my friend used this
program, was working out only once a week (as I suggest in
my last theory), but it should work fine to split it up to one muscle
/small muscle group a day, as with RRM's program.

So, doing isolating exercises, one each day, as RRM suggests, but
instead of using 1-2 sets 25-50 reps, one does 10x10, with short
breaks in between the sets. This will allow you to use slightly
heavier weights, but will not cause more muscle to "help" with the
exercise, as the sets are short (you are never very tired at the
end of each set).

I feel pretty certain that this will work to build muscle (not as good
as when all exercises are done in one day, due to less testosterone
when involving less muscle), but will it produce a bigger testosterone
response than your method of working out, RRM?

What do you guys think?
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Post by RRM »

fictor wrote:But what about counter acting this with sauna/steam bath right after the workout, and the day after? This should take care of the temporary water retention, dont you think?
Sure, it drains water from your body, but that doesnt mean it eliminates water retention in the skin (and certainly not everywhere), and of course, you will replenish the water that got lost.
I just thought that it is easier to counter act the temporary water retention when you know exactly when it is coming.
Its hard to counteract water retention, so that the best way is prevention. Anything else is always less effective.
does a high muscle mass cause constantly higher testosterone levels?
I dont know it for sure, but it seems very logical to me, as it takes more effort to sustain a high muscle volume, which requires a higher level of metabolic activities, which requires a higher level of metabolic hormones such as testosterone.
fictor
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Post by fictor »

OK, so I am screwed, right? I am never going to stay acne
free AND be strong and muscular? :(

Anyways, what do you think about my second theory?
Will 10x10 create a bigger testosterone reaction than
2x25-50? If not, it might be more effective and equally
safe, regarding acne.
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Post by RRM »

fictor wrote:Put simply, GVT is doing 10 reps, ten sets (10x10)
Totally, this makes up 100 reps. This is the same as
in RRM's 2x50 workout.
Ok, but the weights are heavier.
instead of using 1-2 sets 25-50 reps, one does 10x10, with short
breaks in between the sets. This will allow you to use slightly
heavier weights,
Im gonna try it out now, with bicep curls.
one moment...
...
ehhrrr, you were right, for me its only 10 to 20% heavier weights.
The 'secret' of this method is the pump; with my method the limiting factor (as to how many reps you can do) is the 'burning'. With this method it is 'the pump'.
I feel pretty certain that this will work to build muscle
I think so too.
, but will it produce a bigger testosterone
response than your method of working out, RRM?
Its hard to tell, but my guess is that it does not.
I will start experimenting with this method from now on, and see what the results are.
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Post by RRM »

fictor wrote: it might be more effective and equally
safe, regarding acne.
Yes, I believe so, but let us see what the results are.
fictor
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Post by fictor »

It is very cool that you are trying it out, RRM! :)

I am trying it myself at the moment, but my results
might not be as accurate as yours, since I am not
100% clear yet.
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Post by RRM »

So far, 'the feel' is good (as when you change exercise routines, it always has a profound effect in the beginning).
No acne. A friend of mine is trying it too now.
fictor
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Post by fictor »

Any results on the 10x10 yet, RRM?

I still struggle with my repetitive strain injury, so I am on and off the weight lifting.
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Post by RRM »

Yes, for me it appears to be more effective, and no acne-effects at all.
fictor
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Post by fictor »

RRM wrote:Yes, for me it appears to be more effective, and no acne-effects at all.
Yes! That is great news!

The increased effectiveness might be just due to variation though, and thereby not mean that 10x10 are better than 2xfailure, but rather that one should alternate these two.

My wrist is better, so I am back to lifting now, very exited to see if t will
give me the desired effects :)
fictor
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Post by fictor »

Ok, I felt it was once again time to bump this thread, by posting an update, and submitting a few new questions/theories :)

Update: 10x10 seems to be working, not as great as a hardcore bodybuilder/strength program with massive protein intake would do, but well enough due to the fact that it does not trigger a very large hormone reaction. I still feel though, that we need to keep searching for even better alternatives. I miss my broad shoulders and big, rock hard pecks! :)

Questions:

Jogging: I know jogging is not ideal for losing weight, but what about if one wants to get overall more muscle and better stamina, and actually do not care if one gains a few kilos? Is jogging a testosterone-boosting workout, like say heavy weight lifting?

Swimming: What about swimming? Would it cause testosterone levels to rise very high? I am thinking of semi intensive swimming for maybe 10-20 mins.

And what about riding a bike (medium intensive)? This could be an effective way to train my legs and stamina, but would it cause a testosterone boost?

Boxing (on a punching bag): I used to box a few years ago, and still enjoys to hit the bag a little. Would a few intensive minutes of hard hitting be a testo-booster?


Intensive running intervals (in stairs or uphill). This is an effective way to train your heart and your legs, but would this cause testosterone to skyrocket?

Working out more than one muscle (group) a day: I want to work out all muscles at least one a week. The week having only seven days and I having more than seven muscles I want to work out, I am having a hard time using only very specific exercises, targeting only one muscle or a small muscle group. Could one train say front, middle and back shoulder in one day, or would this cause a testosterone boost? And what about exercises such as push ups or bench press, targeting both pecs, triceps and front shoulder. Is this to many muscles?

I know all these questions are not easy to give a straight answer to, but please feel free to share experiences and any information you might have on these topics :)
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