Workout with low glycogen stores ?

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
Jodiat
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Post by Jodiat »

I ate raw salmon and drank whey for 3 months and lifted as heavy as I could. The results was high muscle, low body fat. High acne and low energy. I wouldnt use such diet again. If that helps?
fred
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote:
fred wrote: If you google something like "protein to glucose conversion 58", you'll find numerous pages who repeat that fact ?
Ah, but thats not in low-glucose conditions.
Thats just reflecting the average ratio of strictly glucogenic amino acids in
our diet, given normal condtions (not low-glucose).
In low-glucose conditions (paleo diet) the amino acids that are both glucogenic and
ketogenic will be converted into glucose, so that that conversion rate is much higher.
Apparently this conversion rate does not vary (which seems strange). The guy in the following link has made extensive blood glucose tests and he found that the 58% conversion rate occurs even on a zerocarb diet (meat only), with different fat/protein ratio (see post #2) :

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/lex%27s-journal/

"What I'm finding is that all protein eaten is converted to glucose at the rate of about 58%."

Post #4 :
"BTW, I know two other people that have done similar experiments and they had the same results."

This needs to be further investigated :?
fred
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Post by fred »

Jodiat wrote:I ate raw salmon and drank whey for 3 months and lifted as heavy as I could. The results was high muscle, low body fat. High acne and low energy. I wouldnt use such diet again. If that helps?
Only salmon and whey ?
Salmon is lean and whey is pure protein.
How did you get your calories ?
Jodiat
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Post by Jodiat »

Just that and coconut oil lol.
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RRM
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

fred wrote: Apparently this conversion rate does not vary (which seems strange).
Its not strange, its impossible.
It would mean that amino acids that are both glucogenic and ketogenic, would actually be glucogenic only,
and that the body is not able to adapt the production of glucose to our diet.
Evolution does not have any mercy with such rigidness.
"What I'm finding is that all protein eaten is converted to glucose at the rate of about 58%."
He went on to state that:
This was demonstrated to me by the drop in blood glucose levels when I changed my diet from 32% protein to less than 20% protein
And thats his proof.
As if there is a closed circuit of protein to glucose conversion...
This same guy stated that
Yes it was a surprise to me too, when I found that a portion of any and all protein eaten is converted to glucose.
So, this guy previously didnt even know that part of the protein is always converted into glucose.
He stated this:
My original protein consumption was about 150g/day. This converted to 87g of glucose ...
...
When I cut the protein to 90g/day ... there is 52g glucose created
and 87/150 and 52/90 are both 58%, indeed,
but that 'conversion calculation' is entirely based on this:
68%F/32%P
Baseline

106 Blood glucose daily average
90/120 Blood glucose Hi/Low Range
25 Blood glucose rise after meal
0-Trace Urine Ketones
58 Resting Heart Rt
162 Weight
21.4 Body mass index
11.09 Body fat percentage


80%F/20%P
14 Days

88 Blood glucose daily average
75/105 Blood glucose Hi/Low Range
15 Blood glucose rise after meal
Mod/Lg Urine Ketones
68 Resting Heart Rt
159 Weight
21.0 Body mass index
10.77 Body fat percentage
The problem is that there are no data for actual amino acid to glucose calculations in here.
So that his numbers are distractions from the data above, and the problem of that is that the glucose system is not at all 'closed'.
A distraction is only possible if all parameters are included.
- These parameters are not included:
- glucose to glycogen (right after the meal)
- amino acids to glycogen (right after the meal)
- water retention (influences BMI, weight)
- muscle protein to blood amino acids (way after the meal)
- muscle protein to glucose (way after the meal)
- glycerol (from triglycerides) to glucose (way after the meal)
- fatty acids to glucose (way after the meal
- liver glycogen to glucose (way after the meal)
fred
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote: - These parameters are not included:
- glucose to glycogen (right after the meal)
- amino acids to glycogen (right after the meal)
- water retention (influences BMI, weight)
- muscle protein to blood amino acids (way after the meal)
- muscle protein to glucose (way after the meal)
- glycerol (from triglycerides) to glucose (way after the meal)
- fatty acids to glucose (way after the meal
- liver glycogen to glucose (way after the meal)
Don't Blood glucose reflect these parameters ?
I believed fatty acids can't be converted to glucose ?
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

Leucine and lysine are the only amino acids that cannot be converted into glucose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid
http://www.biocarta.com/pathfiles/glucogenicPathway.asp
A 58% amino acid to glucose conversion rate in low glucose (high glucagon) conditions is therefore simply impossible.
(Glucagon may increase gluconeogenesis (newly produced glucose, not yielded from glycogen) 93% above resting value)
Don't Blood glucose reflect these parameters ?
The distraction method is simply not accurate due to a number of unreliable variables.
Water retention due to elevated protein levels influences BMI and weight,
and thus the outcome.
The amount of liver glycogen (which can be reconverted into glucose) is not measured.
Also not measured are the blood and lymphe amino acid levels, which may vary from 100% up to 900%.
Also, the muscles use fatty acids, glucose as well as amino acids (including leucine, valine, isoleucine) for energy, and the ratios fluctuate.
I believed fatty acids can't be converted to glucose ?
Yes, they can, also yielding ketones such as beta-hydroxybutyric acid and acetoacetic acid.
His calculation method is a huge oversimplification.
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Post by fred »

Sometimes I can't eat at the end of the afternoon and I feel tired. When I eat my last protein meal before going to bed, my energy level is immediately better.
Is-it thanks to the conversion of amino acid into glucose ?
I guess protein are misused if it is the case.
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Post by RRM »

fred wrote:Sometimes I can't eat at the end of the afternoon and I feel tired.
Do you mean that you sometimes you feel tired because you cant eat?
When I eat my last protein meal before going to bed, my energy level is immediately better.
Not after consuming sugars?
Is-it thanks to the conversion of amino acid into glucose ?
That may be the case, but its also true that when your blood amino acid levels are low,
you may also feel tired. (in a different way; there is no real need for energy,
but you dont feel perfect)
fred
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Post by fred »

RRM wrote:
fred wrote:Sometimes I can't eat at the end of the afternoon and I feel tired.
Do you mean that you sometimes you feel tired because you cant eat?
Yes
When I eat my last protein meal before going to bed, my energy level is immediately better.
Not after consuming sugars?
No, lean protein only (fish)
Is-it thanks to the conversion of amino acid into glucose ?
That may be the case, but its also true that when your blood amino acid levels are low,
you may also feel tired. (in a different way; there is no real need for energy,
but you dont feel perfect)
In this case, I feel a lack of energy !
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Post by RRM »

fred wrote:
RRM wrote:
fred wrote:Sometimes I can't eat at the end of the afternoon and I feel tired.
Do you mean that you sometimes you feel tired because you cant eat?
Yes
Then make sure it never gets this far.
Simply always carry a small bottle of juice with you, with lots of sugar.
Dried fruits and nuts also do the trick.
And if that isnt an option either, use dextrose or sugar tablets.
You can tell people that your body has a tendency towards diabetes,
and that you need to keep your blood sugar level up.
fred wrote:
RRM wrote:
fred wrote:When I eat my last protein meal before going to bed, my energy level is immediately better.
Not after consuming sugars?
No, lean protein only (fish)
Both amino acids and glucose stimulate insulin secretion and the satiety hormones,
some amino acids even more than glucose does.
Particularly if you consume sugars and then protein,
there will be a very 'broad satisfying' effect.
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