Workout with low glycogen stores ?

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
fred
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Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

Is-it a good idea, on a WaiDiet, to workout on an empty stomach in the morning, when glycogen stores are low?

My goal is to put some meat on my carcass.

Many guru (Devany...) recommend to workout when glycogen stores are low (to burn more fat ...).
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RRM
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

It will indeed up the utilization of fat a little bit (due to a lack of glucose),
but the biggest effect will be the turnover of protein into energy.
And since your blood protein and energy levels are low in the early, sober morning,
much of that protein will come from muscle tissue.
The need to be active (fight or flight response), plus the lack of available glucose / glycogen
sends a 'distress' signal to the brain, which directs the rise of both adrenaline and cortisol levels,
which stimulate the conversion of protein into energy (the glucogenic amino acids are converted into glucose).

So, the best way to LOOSE muscle weight,
is to work out on an empty stomach in the morning.
fred
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote:And since your blood protein and energy levels are low in the early, sober morning, ...
Does it mean that it is better to eat some protein (in addition to sugar/fat) in the morning, or before working out, in order to replenish blood protein ?
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RRM
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

fred wrote:
RRM wrote:And since your blood protein and energy levels are low in the early, sober morning, ...
Does it mean that it is better to eat some protein (in addition to sugar/fat) in the morning, or before working out, in order to replenish blood protein ?
No. The protein is converted into energy due to the lack of glucose,
and because the blood protein level is low as well, that protein will be obtained from muscles.
But if there is no lack of glucose and glycogen, there is no need to
convert protein into energy.
Its better to consume that protein (and more sugars) right after the exercise,
which will stimulate the uptake of amino acids in muscle tissue.
fred
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote:So, the best way to LOOSE muscle weight,
is to work out on an empty stomach in the morning.
So how do you explain that many well muscled people work out in the morning on an empty stomach and still gain muscles ?
Is-it because their body burns primary fat during their work-out ?
Is-it because their body overcompensates after the work-out ?
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

fred wrote: So how do you explain that many well muscled people work out in the morning on an empty stomach and still gain muscles ?
They are not on this diet.
They stack up on muscle glycogen the evening before (to stimulate muscle growth),
and this muscle glycogen is still there in the morning,
which means that they can utilize at least 1200 kcal for that work out.
Is-it because their body burns primary fat during their work-out ?
no, its mostly glycogen,
plus some glucose and fat.
Is-it because their body overcompensates after the work-out ?
Sorry, i dont understand.
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote:They are not on this diet.
They stack up on muscle glycogen the evening before (to stimulate muscle growth),
and this muscle glycogen is still there in the morning,
which means that they can utilize at least 1200 kcal for that work out.
Most of them are on a paleolithic diet (ie : high fat/lowcarb with no grain and potatoes) so they can't stack up on glycogen more than on the Wai Diet. They say that they mostly burn fat ?
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

fred wrote: Most of them are on a paleolithic diet (ie : high fat/lowcarb with no grain and potatoes)
I think that the Paleolithic diet is not just high in fat, but also high in protein.
They may think that protein is not a source of sugars, but it certainly is.
When you consume little sugars, most of the protein is converted into glucose.
so they can't stack up on glycogen more than on the Wai Diet.
Maybe the other way around.
The Wai diet is about small meals.
Im pretty sure that the Paleolithic diet is not about small meals.
So, all that protein is perfectly converted into glucose and subsequently glycogen.
They say that they mostly burn fat ?
If they dont consume oils, its mostly protein.
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by Oscar »

fred wrote:They say that they mostly burn fat ?
Burning fat always happens in skeletal muscles. Resting muscles use fatty acids and ketone bodies for fuel. Moderately active muscles add glucose to that, maximally active muscles use glycogen in addition to the previous means of energy. So the more active muscles become, the more sugar energy they are using. Burning mostly fat is therefore a relative statement and happens 'more' the less active the skeletal muscles are.

Like RRM said, in relative absence of carbs as a glucose source, protein will be converted when needed.
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote:I think that the Paleolithic diet is not just high in fat, but also high in protein.
They may think that protein is not a source of sugars, but it certainly is.
When you consume little sugars, most of the protein is converted into glucose.
Even if they eat 2Kg of meat a day, that's around 400g of protein. The body can convert 58% of protein into glucose, that makes 240g of glucose. Not so much.
Maybe the other way around.
The Wai diet is about small meals.
Im pretty sure that the Paleolithic diet is not about small meals.
So, all that protein is perfectly converted into glucose and subsequently glycogen.
And what about ketosis ? Isn't it a better explanation : on a high fat, moderate protein and low carbs, the body shifted from a metabolism relying primarily on carbohydrates for fuel to one using primarily fat and ketones for fuel.
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

fred wrote:
RRM wrote:I think that the Paleolithic diet is not just high in fat, but also high in protein.
They may think that protein is not a source of sugars, but it certainly is.
When you consume little sugars, most of the protein is converted into glucose.
Even if they eat 2Kg of meat a day, that's around 400g of protein. The body can convert 58% of protein into glucose, that makes 240g of glucose. Not so much.
Beef on average (without the fat rims) contains 2% fat and 22% protein.
So that by eating beef, you will consume 11 fold more protein than fat.
Even brisket contains more protein (18.35%) than fat (14.45%).

Protein consists of 20 amino acids.
Leucine and lysine are strictly ketogenic amino acids, meaning that they cannot be converted into glucose.
Phenylalanine, tyrosine, isoleucine and tryptophane are both glucogenic and ketogenic, which means that when consuming little sugars, they will be converted into glucose.
The rest: methionine, cysteine, valine, alanine, asparagine, aspartic acid, glutamine, glutamic acid, threonine, glycine, histidine, proline, serine and arginine are strictly glucogenic.

So, when consuming little sugars, 18 out of 20 amino acids (90%) will be converted into glucose (360 gram).
So, yes, this paleolithic diet will still supply you with both lots of fats and sugars (indirectly)

And what about ketosis ?
A diet with lots of meat is not moderate in protein at all...
What about ketosis?
Here is a thread about it.
viewtopic.php?t=1076&start=0
Feel free to post there, after reading it...
Isn't it a better explanation : on a high fat, moderate protein and low carbs, the body shifted from a metabolism relying primarily on carbohydrates for fuel to one using primarily fat and ketones for fuel.
A better explanation for what?
Last edited by RRM on Tue 01 Jun 2010 18:18, edited 2 times in total.
fred
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote:
Beef on average (without the fat rims) contains 2% fat and 22% protein.
So that by eating beef, you will consume 11 fold more protein than fat.
Even brisket contains more protein (18.35%) than fat (14.45%).
Some cuts are more fatty than others, and some deliberately add fat to their lean meat. The recommended ratio (in kcal) to stay in ketosis is around 80% fat and 20% protein.
So, when consuming little sugars, 18 out of 20 amino acids (90%) will be converted into glucose (360 gram).
So, yes, this paleolithic diet will still supply you with both lots of fats and sugars (indirectly)
I have read that the protein to glucose conversion rate is 58%. Anyway, even 360 gram (= 1440 Kcal) is lower than the energy coming from fat (generally 200 to 300g = 1800 to 2700 Kcal).
Isn't it a better explanation : on a high fat, moderate protein and low carbs, the body shifted from a metabolism relying primarily on carbohydrates for fuel to one using primarily fat and ketones for fuel.
A better explanation for what?
For the fact that some well muscled people work-out on an empty stomach in the morning with a paleo diet (high fat.moderate protein/low carb)
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

Some cuts are more fatty than others
Sure, but you never make it to this ratio: "80% fat and 20% protein".
A diet consisting of lots of beef, fatty or not, will always be a high protein diet.
And depending on how fat the cuts are, high or moderately high in fat as well.
I have read that the protein to glucose conversion rate is 58%.
Where did you read that?
Did they say something about the conditions? (high glucose, or not)
If your diet is high in glucose, then that conversion rate may
be accurate, because then those amino acids that can be converted in
either glucose or fat, will be converted into fat.
Anyway, even 360 gram (= 1440 Kcal) is lower than the energy coming from fat (generally 200 to 300g = 1800 to 2700 Kcal).
Sure, but such a diet is both high in protein as well as high in fat.
For the fact that some well muscled people work-out on an empty stomach in the morning with a paleo diet (high fat.moderate protein/low carb)
That such a diet is moderate in protein, is not a fact at all.
Every meat-based diet is high in protein.
And in such a situation, they will fill up their glycogen depots after every big meal (1440 kcal from protein).
So that they can work out on an empty stomach in the morning.
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by fred »

RRM wrote:
I have read that the protein to glucose conversion rate is 58%.
Where did you read that?
If you google something like "protein to glucose conversion 58", you'll find numerous pages who repeat that fact ?
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Re: Workout with low glycogen stores ?

Post by RRM »

fred wrote: If you google something like "protein to glucose conversion 58", you'll find numerous pages who repeat that fact ?
Ah, but thats not in low-glucose conditions.
Thats just reflecting the average ratio of strictly glucogenic amino acids in
our diet, given normal condtions (not low-glucose).
In low-glucose conditions (paleo diet) the amino acids that are both glucogenic and
ketogenic will be converted into glucose, so that that conversion rate is much higher.
Last edited by RRM on Tue 01 Jun 2010 18:07, edited 1 time in total.
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