looking to modify this workout for myself need help

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
waipete
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looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby waipete » Tue 14 Jun 2011 11:28

So you say low rep is baad so I was thinking

I'm gonna do a new workout routine, a modified version (wai style) of this one with higher rep (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ectomor ... aining.htm)

Squats 20-30 1 set
Bench Press 20-30 1 set
V-Bar Pulldown 20-30 1 set
Lateral Raise 20-30 1 set
Dumbbell Curls 20-30 1 set
Close-Grip Bench Press 20-30 1 set

Everyday (easier to maintain workout plan when done everyday). 24 hour rest.

Looking too gain weight currently 127lb 5'7 and my ultimate goal is to gain 33lbs of muscle, I'm really a hard gainer, the most I ever gained in a week was 2lbs. so I'm thinking 1.5 liters of juice, 4 fruits, a tomato a cucumber, 120ml of OO and 10 yolks (3177.43kcal). Oscar said I would need 3500kcal or less to match my old diet which I would gain 2lb a week with.
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 11:40

If your goal is to simply increase muscle, then science says you need to do less reps with higher weights until failure, working out once max twice a week. Actually forget about reps all together, best way is to do an exercise for about 60-90 seconds, so choose weights with which you'll get to failure in this time.
Doing one set per exercise is right, when you do it until positive failure. It's very important to do exercise veery slowly in both positive and negative motion, because of higher weight it's easier to make a mistake and injure.
You can increase calories all you want, most of the excess will be deposited as fats. You can gain max about an ounce of muscle per day. Since 75% of the muscle tissue is water, you only need an extra few grams protein per day to build muscles.
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 11:47

The exercise are all well picked, except dumbbell curls. V-Bar pulldown already covers your biceps and exercises them in a better way so I'd take the dumbbells out. 33lb of muscle will take you quite some time to build, so take it slowly and don't get discouraged if you don't see results immediately :) Best way to measure if you're gaining muscle is by noticing how much you can lift, not by measuring weight. When you can increase weights and still manage 60-90s to failure, you know you've gained some muscles.
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 12:21

Btw another thing is the amino acid Leucine. According to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucine#Biology):
Leucine is the only dietary protein that has the capacity to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.[5]
The problem with leucine is it's quite scarce in foods, so in the end you will have to get some extra protein through food just so that you get some more leucine. This would further stimulate MPS and you might be actually able to go beyond an ounce of muscle per day (I'm just speculating here though, I need to further investigate this :))
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 12:42

From http://www.hchs.edu/literature/BCAA.pdf:
Certain amino acids have a muscle tissue
signaling effect on synthesis. Glutamine and leucine
are in this category. Glutamine seems to have the
largest response although ineffective if leucine is not
present.
Leucine has a direct action on stimulation of protein
synthesis with activation of insulin and cellular
activation. Insulin increases the uptake of all amino
acids into cells.
So Leucine basically works by stimulating insulin which results in increased amino acid uptake by cells. I wonder if it would work the same if you consume more sugar with your protein meal, instead of getting more leucine..
Exercise recovery and the degradation of proteins are
reduced with the use of BCAA’s and especially leucine.
As noted above leucine has a signaling effect on key
enzymes for protein synthesis having an anabolic effect
on human muscle.
Sorry waipete, I'm kinda bombarding your topic here, but I think this stuff will be useful to at least you and me :)
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 13:13

Actually I'm thinking to start eating the egg whites, they seem to be the best source of leucine. I'm anyway wasting so many every day..
As it seems cooking the egg whites at 160F (71C) for a few seconds, or 142F (61C) for 3 minutes is enough to deactivate the avidin. I doubt poaching them in near boiling water for a few seconds will make much damage to the proteins or the other things they contain. So I'm thinking this should be a good post-workout meal, poached egg whites blended with some fruits.
Of course egg whites whether cooked or not might not be good for acne, so those who have them -- be careful, don't just take my thoughts here for granted.
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RRM
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby RRM » Tue 14 Jun 2011 18:11

dime wrote:Actually I'm thinking to start eating the egg whites, they seem to be the best source of leucine.
Leucine is not an amino acid that you may have in short supply.
Look at the first graph here:
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html
Compared to recommendations / requirements, its abundantly present in our diet.
If one is eating a very specific diet (eg mainly grains), other amino acids may be relatively poorly supplied,
such as tryptophan, lysine, or phenylalanine/tyrosine, but in general its always methionine / cysteine that are the least abundantly supplied,
and its never leucine.

Besides that, here is the ratio of leucine relative to total protein in some foods:
10.1% egg yolk
10.1% tuna
9.7% egg white
9.6% mackerel
8.9% salmon
8.8% beef

And, as you know, leucine is only one of the 18 amino acids generally listed as nutrients,
and, as you can see in the numbers above, leucine's presence is relatively big (greater than 1/18 = 5.5%).
Furthermore, leucine enhances the enzyme tryptophan-pyrrolase, which irreversibly decomposes tryptophan, and tryptophan is required for conversion into serotonin,
which is required to sleep well and feel happy. So that increasing the ratio of leucine relative to tryptophan may have adverse effects regarding how you feel and sleep.
As it seems cooking the egg whites at 160F (71C) for a few seconds, or 142F (61C) for 3 minutes is enough to deactivate the avidin.
Where did you get this info?
waipete
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby waipete » Tue 14 Jun 2011 18:33

dime wrote:If your goal is to simply increase muscle, then science says you need to do less reps with higher weights until failure, working out once max twice a week. Actually forget about reps all together, best way is to do an exercise for about 60-90 seconds, so choose weights with which you'll get to failure in this time.
Doing one set per exercise is right, when you do it until positive failure. It's very important to do exercise veery slowly in both positive and negative motion, because of higher weight it's easier to make a mistake and injure.
I like this path a lot more, but I been reading here and RRM said something about low reps that cause a heavy spike in testosterone leading to acne or something like that. So really I am not sure what is best.
You can increase calories all you want, most of the excess will be deposited as fats. You can gain max about an ounce of muscle per day. Since 75% of the muscle tissue is water, you only need an extra few grams protein per day to build muscles.
very interesting. I wonder if I can eat less then? The 160lb goal is just something I'd like to get to in maybe 15 months more to be realistic.
dime wrote:The exercise are all well picked, except dumbbell curls. V-Bar pulldown already covers your biceps and exercises them in a better way so I'd take the dumbbells out. 33lb of muscle will take you quite some time to build, so take it slowly and don't get discouraged if you don't see results immediately :) Best way to measure if you're gaining muscle is by noticing how much you can lift, not by measuring weight. When you can increase weights and still manage 60-90s to failure, you know you've gained some muscles.
The V-bar is for the back muscles Latissimus dorsi mainly, I don't actually have a machine like that, so I will have to substitute with another exercise, and still keep the dumbbell curls. I love dumbbell curls :D
dime wrote:Btw another thing is the amino acid Leucine. According to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucine#Biology):
Leucine is the only dietary protein that has the capacity to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.[5]
The problem with leucine is it's quite scarce in foods, so in the end you will have to get some extra protein through food just so that you get some more leucine. This would further stimulate MPS and you might be actually able to go beyond an ounce of muscle per day (I'm just speculating here though, I need to further investigate this :))
I wouldn't mind bigger gains quicker. I'll have to read up on this.
dime wrote:Actually I'm thinking to start eating the egg whites, they seem to be the best source of leucine. I'm anyway wasting so many every day..
As it seems cooking the egg whites at 160F (71C) for a few seconds, or 142F (61C) for 3 minutes is enough to deactivate the avidin. I doubt poaching them in near boiling water for a few seconds will make much damage to the proteins or the other things they contain. So I'm thinking this should be a good post-workout meal, poached egg whites blended with some fruits.
Of course egg whites whether cooked or not might not be good for acne, so those who have them -- be careful, don't just take my thoughts here for granted.
I wouldn't take them, at least not until I hear from an admin. Thank you for bombarding my topic the extra attention is much appreciated, and all your input it's all very helpful.
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 19:10

@RRM
I meant it's scarce in the sense that it seems to be needed in biggest quantity by the body (out of all essential amino acids). It might be abundant in foods, but when I put these foods through a nutrient calculator, leucine pretty much always comes lowest in meeting the amino acid requirements.

Good that you poked me about the avidin info. It's all over the internet but I couldn't find some scientific source and thought it must be hidden in some book which is not online.

Now I found "Egg science and technology" By William J. Stadelman, Owen J. Cotterill (I should definitely read this book)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Kw_yfA ... &q&f=false

First it mentions the >70C temp as discovered in 1966.
However then it says that with newer methods it was determined that even in fried, poached, and boiled eggs there was still avidin activity (33, 71 and 40% of the activity in raw egg white).
Then it says that it will be destroyed by some temperature values that I don't understand (D_121 C and Z value of 33C) in an some alkaline solution of 7.3.
Interesting thing is, besides biotin, avidin it binds with some bacteria too, so it's also anti-microbial.

Damn and I thought I could finally put those egg whites into some use :)
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 19:38

waipete wrote:I like this path a lot more, but I been reading here and RRM said something about low reps that cause a heavy spike in testosterone leading to acne or something like that. So really I am not sure what is best.
Hmm I'm not sure about this, it could be possible. I mean increased testosterone will also increase muscle gain, but it's right that it might have effect on acne too. You'll have to experiment once you clear your acne on the diet and see whether it works.
waipete wrote:very interesting. I wonder if I can eat less then? The 160lb goal is just something I'd like to get to in maybe 15 months more to be realistic.
15 months is very realistic if you stick to your exercise and proper nutrition.
waipete wrote:The V-bar is for the back muscles Latissimus dorsi mainly, I don't actually have a machine like that, so I will have to substitute with another exercise, and still keep the dumbbell curls. I love dumbbell curls :D
It also works out the biceps, and it's much better because it doesn't put so much pressure on your elbows. I do it like this though, not with a V-bar

Image
I wouldn't take them, at least not until I hear from an admin. Thank you for bombarding my topic the extra attention is much appreciated, and all your input it's all very helpful.
Yeah forget about them, they have been debunked :) And you're welcome, I'm actually trying to achieve the same as you so it's a topic of interest to me too.
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RRM
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby RRM » Tue 14 Jun 2011 20:00

dime wrote:@RRM
I meant it's scarce in the sense that it seems to be needed in biggest quantity by the body (out of all essential amino acids).
The WHO recommends 1040 mg meth/cys and 1120 mg leucine for a 80 kg man. (ratio: 1.00 / 1.08)
Availability of leucine relative to methionine/cysteine (= 1.00) in some Wai foods:

4.82 - Tuna
4.19 - Beef
4.18 - Egg yolk
4.14 - Mackerel
3.57 - Salmon

15.45 - Banana
8.04 - Avocado
5.82 - Orange
1.80 - Mandarin
1.56 - Brazil nuts

I could not find a single Wai food with a ratio lower than 1.08 : 1.00.
Brazil nuts had the lowest ratio of all, due to their very high methionine contents.
So that its impossible to lack leucine, no matter what foods you eat.
It might be abundant in foods, but when I put these foods through a nutrient calculator, leucine pretty much always comes lowest in meeting the amino acid requirements.
What foods do you eat exactly?
What is the requirement for leucine, methionine and cystine in that calculator?
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 20:13

RRM wrote:The WHO recommends 1040 mg meth/cys and 1120 mg leucine for a 80 kg man. (ratio: 1.00 / 1.08)
I think that's an old recommendation, from http://whqlibdoc.who.int/trs/WHO_TRS_935_eng.pdf
The 1973/1985 FAO/WHO values for leucine derived from a value of 1100 mg/day (3) expressed as 14 mg/kg per day.
The recommendation now is 39mg/kg, so for me it's 2700mg which I myself set in the nutrient calculator. MET/CYS also according to the above WHO report I've set to 1000 and 700mg.
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RRM
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby RRM » Tue 14 Jun 2011 20:55

Damn..., now i will have to revise a lot of stuff... :(
dime
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby dime » Tue 14 Jun 2011 21:09

It's interesting that there's such a big difference though, from 14 to 39mg it's like 3x more. Oh well, we go with what current research says..
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Re: looking to modify this workout for myself need help

Postby Oscar » Wed 15 Jun 2011 12:13

RRM wrote:Damn..., now i will have to revise a lot of stuff... :(
That was already the case ;)

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