Fat and Working Out

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
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nick
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Fat and Working Out

Post by nick »

I've been reading the posts in the Gaining Muscle and Losing Weight Forums, mostly the ones where you (Wai and RRM) explain how the more intense you workout the more likely you'll put on wieght. This makes sense and I understand your explanations.

However, I have some questions...
quote:
if you are engaging in moderate exercise, like walking, for an extended period of time, say an hour, the body will have a chance to metabolize a good amount of bodyfat to supply energy for walking.
yes, but more importantly, the ratio of utilized fat relative to that of utilized sugars, is higher than when exercising more intensively
I understand that the more intense the exersise, the more sugar the muscles will need and less fat. When walking (low intensity), the fat/sugar ratio will increase. But why? Do you need the fat from your adipose to feed your heart? to stabilize the sugar level? Why do our bodies use more fat when we do low intensity exercises? I haven't been able to figure that part out yet!
quote:
being in a powerfully hungry condition leaves one very susceptible to overeating (eating more energy than the body currently needs/can use). Overeating of course leads to additional stored bodyfats.
yes, and the meals will be much bigger, while the amount of sugars that can be 'stored' in the blood remains the same, and the glycogen depots are not linearly increasing accordingly either, which means that more energy needs to be temporarily stored as fat
So you have a set amount of sugar that can taken into the blood.
Once that is satisfied the extra sugars are stored into the glycogen depots. What do you mean by "the glycogen depots are linearly increasing accordingly either" I don't understand this part :(

Do the fats that you take in (from a big meal) replenish the fat-blood levels, then the extra fat is used to be stored as fat with the extra sugars? This makes sense!

The extra protein that isn't needed for repair/maintenance is used as fat- sugar-like molecules which could then be stored as fat. Correct?
it is best that all glycogen depots are as empty as possible, because that way all the calories from your munch food will go into directly needed energy (including glycogen) instead of being stored as bodyfat.
You recommend to eat the munch food with the most fat and sugars. But won't the fat be stored, or will it replenish the fat-blood level? This would make sense, since your supposed to eat munch foods after a long walk? (regarding losing weight)
quote:
when u eat foods that are very glycemic, too much blood sugar will enter your body (if u dont eat fat), so the body will change it to fat right?
no, consuming too much sugars in one meal, triggers the insulin system very much. Insulin causes these sugars to be converted into energy that can be stored. If the glycogen depots are not filled up, the sugars that are converted into glycogen, will be stored as glycogen, but the moment these glycogen depots are full, the glycogen will be re-converted into glucose, and that will be converted into glycerol, which is deposited in your fat depots. So, it doesn't matter 'how glycemic' the consumed foods are, but how full your glycogen depots are...
But doesn't glycerol need to have three fatty acids in order to be stored? Because if you didn't have sufficient fat, or fat-like molecules (amino acids) then it would keep stimulating insulin (diabetes like problem). Correct?

Or does your body store the glycogen then when fat is ingested it is easily stored there?? I've never read about this!

Thanks!
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RRM
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Re: Fat and Working Out

Post by RRM »

Originally posted by nick:
I understand that the more intense the exersise, the more sugar the muscles will need and less fat. When walking (low intensity), the fat/sugar ratio will increase. But why?
Slow walking compared to more intense workouts.
Not slow walking compared to resting.
Do you need the fat from your adipose to feed your heart?
you need fat to feed your heart indeed, but it doesn't matter where this fat comes from (blood, adipose tissue)
Why do our bodies use more fat when we do low intensity exercises?
Relatively more fat. Not in total.
So you have a set amount of sugar that can taken into the blood.
Yes, more or less. Too high and too low glucose levels are dangerous.

Once that is satisfied the extra sugars are stored into the glycogen depots.
Yes.
What do you mean by "the glycogen depots are linearly increasing accordingly either" I don't understand this part
It should have said: the glycogen depots are not linearly increasing accordingly either".
Which means that yes, with increasing muscle mass glycogen storage capacity increases, but not as much as the increase in glucose uptake and utilization.
In other words: the increase in glucose is bigger than the increase in glycogen storage capacity, so that more glucose may end up as bodyfat.
Do the fats that you take in (from a big meal) replenish the fat-blood levels, then the extra fat is used to be stored as fat with the extra sugars? This makes sense!
Yes!
The extra protein that isn't needed for repair/maintenance is used as fat- sugar-like molecules which could then be stored as fat. Correct?
Yes.
You recommend to eat the munch food with the most fat and sugars. But won't the fat be stored, or will it replenish the fat-blood level?
It will replenish the blood-fat.
This would make sense, since your supposed to eat munch foods after a long walk? (regarding losing weight)
Exactly.
But doesn't glycerol need to have three fatty acids in order to be stored?
Yes.
Because if you didn't have sufficient fat, or fat-like molecules (amino acids) then it would keep stimulating insulin (diabetes like problem). Correct?
Yes.
Or does your body store the glycogen then when fat is ingested it is easily stored there??
I'm not sure what you mean to ask, so i'm trying to answer it in different ways:
1) No, the glucose is stored as glycogen depending on the blood-glucose level, and is not related to the intake/level of fat.
2) Glycogen is never stored as fat. Only excess glucose may be stroed as glycerol (as adipose fat)
3) Yes, excess glucose is more easily stored as glycerol when sufficient fat is consumed; the body then doesnt need to go into stress mode (re-stimulation of insulin and decreasing blood-fat levels to counteract excess blood-glucose)

Hope I answered your question in some way.
nick
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Re: Fat and Working Out

Post by nick »

you need fat to feed your heart indeed, but it doesn't matter where this fat comes from (blood, adipose tissue)
Ok. I understand that walking (low energy activites, not slow walking over resting( i get that!)) uses more fat from your blood and from your adipose tissue, as you walk for a longer period of time(1 hour), more adipose tissue is utilized. I understand why ones' sugar-levels can fluctuate, from the use of the muscles and for the brain. But what exactly is the nature of the fat-blood level? What triggers our bodyfats utilization is what I think I'm tryin get at.
It should have said: the glycogen depots are not linearly increasing accordingly either".
Which means that yes, with increasing muscle mass glycogen storage capacity increases, but not as much as the increase in glucose uptake and utilization.
In other words: the increase in glucose is bigger than the increase in glycogen storage capacity, so that more glucose may end up as bodyfat.
That makes perfect sense. I knew I wasn't understanding something in that explanation. Thanks!
Or does your body store the glycogen then when fat is ingested it is easily stored there?? I've never read about this!
I totally didn't complete my sentence to what I meant to say:

Does the body take the extra intake of glucose, store it as glycerol, then add three fatty acids when they are absorbed at another meal. But I think that glycerol can only be stored as long as there is sufficient fat as well. And since when you eat a big meal after an intense workout, you'll always ingest enough fat/excess protein that will be used with sugar for adipose storage.

In other words, by eating sugars only, you can never put on wieght, because you always need fat with it.
3) Yes, excess glucose is more easily stored as glycerol when sufficient fat is consumed; the body then doesnt need to go into stress mode (re-stimulation of insulin and decreasing blood-fat levels to counteract excess blood-glucose)
What does the body decrease the blood-fat level to counteract excess blood-glucose level?

Thanks!
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RRM
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Re: Fat and Working Out

Post by RRM »

Originally posted by nick:
But what exactly is the nature of the fat-blood level? What triggers our bodyfats utilization is what I think I'm tryin get at.
It is triggered 24 hours a day. Especially the heart and the bowels use fatty acids for energy, and they never stop working.
Glucose utilization fluctuates much more than that of fat, which goes up and down only mildly.
Even when you sleep, you use quite a lot fat for energy. all you need to do, is to prevent the storage of too much new fat every day.
I think that glycerol can only be stored as long as there is sufficient fat as well.
True.
And since when you eat a big meal after an intense workout, you'll always ingest enough fat/excess protein that will be used with sugar for adipose storage.
Exactly.
In other words, by eating sugars only, you can never put on wieght, because you always need fat with it.
But you will mess up your insulin system, because you need to be able to store fat in order to avoid overstressing of this system; if the glucose cannot be stored, you will be messing up your insulin system, which is no option of course.
So, you also need fat and/or protein.
What does the body decrease the blood-fat level to counteract excess blood-glucose level?
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this question.
Last edited by RRM on Wed 18 Oct 2006 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
nick
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Re: Fat and Working Out

Post by nick »

Sorry, I meant to say:

Why does the body decrease the blood-fat level to counteract excess blood-glucose level?
It is triggered 24 hours a day. Especially the heart and the bowels use fatty acids for energy, and they never stop working.
Glucose utilization fluctuates much more than that of fat, which goes up and down only mildly.
Even when you sleep, you use quite a lot fat for energy. all you need to do, is to prevent the storage of too much new fat every day.
Ok. I understand. And when you walk you use the glycogen to do muscle work, while the fat/glucose ratio has increased.
But you will mess up your insulin system, because you need to be able to store fat in order to avoid overstressing of this system; if the glucose cannot be stored, you will be messing up your insulin system, which is no option of course.
So, you also need fat and/or protein.
Makes sense!
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RRM
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Re: Fat and Working Out

Post by RRM »

Originally posted by nick:
Why does the body decrease the blood-fat level to counteract excess blood-glucose level?
It counteracts excess serum glucose by storing glucose as glycerol in adipose tissue, which requires fatty acids, thus lowering serum fatty acid levels.
And when you walk you use the glycogen to do muscle work, while the fat/glucose ratio has increased.
Yes, the glycogen is utilized, but the fat/glucose ratio doesnt increase. The more active you are, the lower the utilized fat/glucose ratio. Its just that walking is a perfect that uses up glycogen and the fat/glucose ratio is still quite high. With more intense exercises the ratio would decrease more.
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Oscar
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Re: Fat and Working Out

Post by Oscar »

It took me a little bit to process this info, but to recapitulate:

High intensity exercise => more sugars
Low intensity exercise => more fats (blood and body fat)
Heart and bowels normally use fat(ty acids) for energy

Excess sugars => glycogen depots
When they are full => stored as glycerol (with fatty acids) in body fat
Excess fat and protein => body fat

Is this correct?
Where are the glycogen depots?
What is needed to make a muscle grow?
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RRM
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Re: Fat and Working Out

Post by RRM »

High intensity exercise => more sugars
In absolute and relative terms, yes.
Low intensity exercise => more fats (blood and body fat)
Absolute: no
Relative: yes
Heart and bowels normally use fat(ty acids) for energy
Yes, our 'baseline' use of energy (together with 150 gram of glucose / 24 hours for the brain, plus some for maintenance / cell (re)construction)
Excess sugars => glycogen depots
When they are full => stored as glycerol (with fatty acids) in body fat
Yes
Excess fat and protein => body fat
Excess protein is also converted into glucose:
From chapter 57; http://www.freeacnebook.com/56-63.htm
The amino acids that can only be transformed into glucose-like substances are: methionine, cysteine, valine, threonine, alanine, aspartic acid, glutamic acid, glycine, histidine, proline, serine, and arginine. Leucine and lysine can only be converted into fat-like substances. Phenylalanine, tyrosine, isoleucine, and tryptophane can be converted in both fat-like and glucose-like substances. Your body will produce 14-fold more enzymes transforming phenylalanine, tyrosine, isoleucine and tryptophan into fatty acids when you are on a low-fat diet.
Where are the glycogen depots?
In the liver and the muscles. Liver-glycogen (about 400 kcal) may be reconverted into glucose, while muscle-glycogen (about 1200 kcal)cannot.
What is needed to make a muscle grow?
1) Stimulation by exercise
2) All required amino acids (if only one is missing, not a single cell can be build)
3) Sufficient energy to build cells
4) Prevention of muscle breakdwon for energy, by keeping your blood energy levels sufficiently high (otherwise muscle-amino acids are converted into fatty acids or glucose)
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

RRM wrote:But you will mess up your insulin system, because you need to be able to store fat in order to avoid overstressing of this system; if the glucose cannot be stored, you will be messing up your insulin system, which is no option of course.
So, you also need fat and/or protein.
What does the body do with excess glucose if there is no fat/protein available?
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Oscar wrote: What does the body do with excess glucose if there is no fat/protein available?
First, excess glucose is stored as glycogen. And once that has completed, your appetite will be inhibited. Extra glucose still entering the blood will be stored as fat, with help of fatty acids / fat like molecules still present in the blood. glucose molecules are also linked up.
As glucose keeps pouring in, the level of fat in your blood will decrease and the level of glucose will increase.
Of course you constantly need glucose for energy, so that this excess will decrease automatically, but in the meantime this excess glucose will continuously stimulate insulin secretion, which is counteracted by increased glucagon secretion, so that extra energy is both stored and released.
The increased glucose level will make you feel bad, and may even make you throw up, to prevent further influx of energy from the stomach.
So, these are mechanisms to prevent such 'overdosing' (that otherwise might kill you).
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

That's clear. Thanks! :)
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