A thought on cooked food

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Ducky
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A thought on cooked food

Post by Ducky »

When you say that opioid peptides in bread, milk...etc and hormones in animal food affecting our body and our brain, am i right to think that it wouldnt stand for cooked food?

Why do i say that?

Opioid peptides and hormons are made of mostly proteins and we know that heat change or degrade the molecular structure of proteins.

So why would they be exceptions to the rule?
Once their structure changed they wouldnt be able to have an effect on us. Right?
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RRM
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Re: A thought on cooked food

Post by RRM »

Ducky wrote:Opioid peptides and hormons are made of mostly proteins and we know that heat change or degrade the molecular structure of proteins.
Just a small part of the protein. Otherwise, cooked food would be far more dangerous.
Also, opioid peptides are relatively heat-resistent, as they are very small proteins; peptides of just 5 or so amino acids linked to each other. (normal proteins are long chains of hundreds or even thousands of amino acids)
Hormones and growth factors generally are even smaller.
Once their structure changed they wouldnt be able to have an effect on us. Right?
Often on the contrary. Most drugs are made by making small changes to the molecular structure of an already existing (natural or not) drug. Its effects may be weaker or stronger, similar or opposing.
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Post by Ducky »

Ok, thanks RRM!

I guess that means When in doubt, leave it out! :)
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

:lol:
Ducky
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Post by Ducky »

RRM "Just a small part of the protein."

You mean that heat only damages a small part of a protein?

Im kinda confused.
Is it damaging only the structure of the proteins or the structure of the amino acids?

Looking at this animation i get the idea that it only changes the structure of the protein and not that of the amino acids.

Which wouldnt be a bad thing because proteins either way are supposed to break down in our stomach to amino acids.

Its sounds even more to me that heat is doing us a favour.

Click on play and continue:
http://www.sumanasinc.com/webcontent/an ... cture.html

I googled a bit and apparently there arent much experience on the subject i found this one that shows that only one amino acid out of 11 was damaged after 24 hours of autoclaving of a pork meat.

So what can 1 minute of heat do to an eggwhite...

Its a pdf, the first link
"THE EFFECT OF SEVERE HEAT TREATMENT UPON THE AMINO ACIDS"
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=en&clien ... tnG=Search
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Ducky wrote: You mean that heat only damages a small part of a protein?

Im kinda confused.
Is it damaging only the structure of the proteins or the structure of the amino acids?
Both.
The (harmless) denaturation affects the structure of the protein (the shape).
Most amino acids remain totally intact. Some get degraded to amines and others form bonds with other residues. Of the latter some may be dangerous (cancerous)
Looking at this animation i get the idea that it only changes the structure of the protein and not that of the amino acids.
I guess that animation shows the denaturation. It is widely (in the general public, teachings at school) thought that this is the only damage done.
Its sounds even more to me that heat is doing us a favour.
We dont need heat to break down protein for us, because our body can perfectly do that.
But yes, it is a favor if we want to eat food that is inedible for us in its raw state. then the heat makes inedible food edible.
Since most food falls in that category, it is a huge favor.
However, there is also a price to pay. Some by-products of that big favor (oxysterols, HCA's trans fats etc) cause health problems.
I googled a bit and apparently there arent much experience on the subject i found this one that shows that only one amino acid out of 11 was damaged after 24 hours of autoclaving of a pork meat.
A single protein molecule may contain hundreds or even thousands of amino acids. (just one protein!)
There have been done some experiments regarding the origination of HCA due to cooking and there are lots of data available regarding the amino acid composition of cooked foods versus their original raw counterparts.
Many amino acids are relatively heat-resistent, but some are not at all.
Particularly methionine is vulnerable.
If you fry potatoe slices, for example, ALL (100%) methionine gets lost.
(Souci, SW et al, Food Composition and Nutrition Tabels, p.606 to 618)

100 gram paw potato contains 2.04 gram protein, of which 30 mg methionine.
100 gram potato crisps, fried in oil: 5.48 grams protein, of which 0.0 mg methionine
the same goes for fried potato sticks.
100 gram boiled potato dumplings: 7.14 grams protein, of which 50 mg is methionine.

So, by boiling the dumplings already half the methionine is gone.
By frying the sticks or slices, all the methionine is gone.
So what can 1 minute of heat do to an eggwhite...
Well, there probably have been done some tests about this very subject.
dont be surprised if some of the resulting molecules are cancerous HCA's.
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Post by Ducky »

Thank you RRM for taking the time to respond to my questions.
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methionine loss

Post by summerwave »

So-- when you talked about supplementing with methionine, RRM, to improve protein availability (along with phenylalanine, as both are "relatively scarce" along all foods), you were talking only about supplementing with the liquid free aminos you yourself were able to find?

Somehow I didn't connect the dots, or realize this when you made that recommendation.

As I don't really have an acne problem-- just follow the diet for health-- I have been taking methionine and phenylalanine supplements for a year. As we've all noted on here, the liquid free aminos you found in Europe are all but impossible to find now. So-- basically the advice to take methionine is not really advised, as other forms, like those I've been taking, have in all likelihood 0% methionine by the time they're packaged due to their heat processing.

Is this right?
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Post by RRM »

One more thing on this:
only one amino acid out of 11 was damaged
Thats actually quite a lot ; about 9% of all amino acids are destroyed / altered
Given the fact that for example only 1.5% of potato protein is comprised of methionine,
7.5% of the rest of the amino acids is altered as well, particularly isoleucine and alanine.
summerwave wrote:So-- when you talked about supplementing with methionine, ... you were talking only about supplementing with the liquid free aminos you yourself were able to find?
Regarding acne, yes.
I don't really have an acne problem-- ...So-- basically the advice to take methionine is not really advised, as other forms, like those I've been taking, have in all likelihood 0% methionine by the time they're packaged due to their heat processing.
Is this right?
No, the good ones (high quality amino acids, not protein supplements) really do contain the methionine as listed on the package. That methionine is made chemically. They dont take exract the amino acids from food (as lower qualities do), but produce them in a lab.
So, dont worry.
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methionine supplements

Post by summerwave »

Oh good; thank you.

I never really had "willpower" problems with this diet (major stumbling block #1 with it), but I do have "comprehension" problems (major stumbling block #2).

It's the chemistry....
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Re: methionine supplements

Post by RRM »

summerwave wrote: It's the chemistry....
What do you mean?
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chem

Post by summerwave »

I did not have good chemistry instruction in the U.S., either in middle or secondary school, college, or graduate school.

So while most of the chemistry here is simple for some, it is actually the biggest hurdle for me to cross to understand things, or has been.
For example: the discussion of the distortion or damage of protein molecules; all of the things about monosaccharides vs. polysaccharides I learned in adjusting the diet to myself, and a lot of the biochemistry re: glucose, glycogen storage, etc.

Also I did the reading on beta-carbolines and heterocyclic amines and am just beginning to understand what that means at the molecular level.

I have been interested in this diet for approximately 3 years and needed a grasp of the nutritional chemistry behind different types of sugars at least 10 years ago. None of it has seemed easy to me.
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Ah, ok, now i understand.
Well, just ask away about anything and people here will try to explain.
So, when you dont know what complex sugars are, just ask.
summerwave
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chem

Post by summerwave »

Thank you!

It is good to see you on the board....

Are you carrying on the experiments with mice?
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RRM
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Post by RRM »

Unfortunately, i have not been able to start yet. But it will definitely happen. Things are looking good.
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