Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

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mario91
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Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby mario91 » Wed 13 Mar 2019 23:04

Hello all - it's been a long time.

First, I'd like to thank RRM and the rest who have taught me about this diet, years ago. I've been following it ever since, with some cheating, and I think it's done great things for my body.

You guys have taught me extremely important things, which I still agree with, except one: humans are not frutarians who need a little meat! We are carnivores who need a little fruit.

Fruit, like all plants, isn't nourishing to humans. The bioavailability of nutrients is quite low compared to animal foods. Fruit should be eaten for 1) hydration (much better than water), 2) cleasing properties. Not nourishment.

Plus, we shouldn't be eating too many carbs. Humans, before agriculture, relied mostly on animal fat for calories. That should be our prime macronutrient, that's our natural diet, not fruit! Even fruit, before agriculture, was much lower in sugar, and much harder to obtain in significant quantities (except in the tropics).

I think the Wai Diet has certainly done a lot for many people, but we are giving them dangerous advice if we say "you just need 100g a day of animal foods". We need way more than that. We specially need a lot of animal fat, and the vegetable fat from avocados and nuts will never compare to animal fat. Even before becoming more carnivore-minded myself I was always eating 12 egg yolks and 300 grams of dried beef a day, because that's what my body asked for.

I'm not gonna go and point studies to all of this, because otherwise I wouldn't leave here today, but to those interested in this view I'd invite you to check out Weston A. Price, Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, Aajonous Vonderplanitz, etc etc. Specially the latter. He basically agrees with everything on the Wai paradigm, except on the milk part, and that we should actually focus on raw animal foods and not fruit. (Notice: I strongly advise against consuming any raw meat except beef due to parasites. I still think the Wai paradigm is more correct on that aspect.)
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RRM
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby RRM » Sat 23 Mar 2019 13:10

Hi Mario. Welcome back.
mario91 wrote:
Wed 13 Mar 2019 23:04
Fruit, like all plants, isn't nourishing to humans. The bioavailability of nutrients is quite low compared to animal foods. Fruit should be eaten for 1) hydration (much better than water), 2) cleasing properties. Not nourishment.
Yes, the bioavailability of nutrients in plants is lower than that of animal foods.
That does not mean that fruits are not nourishing. Only the extend differs.
This means that when you eat mostly fruits, you need to eat more than one meal a day ("grazing")
And it means that carnivores can do with one meal a day (or less).
But, in both cases ingesting sufficient nutrients is not an issue at all if sufficient food is available.
Fruits are perfectly nourishing, but require more meals.
Plus, we shouldn't be eating too many carbs.
Why not?
Humans, before agriculture, relied mostly on animal fat for calories.
How is that plausible?
Compared to the availability of carbs and protein, animal fat is relatively scarse in nature.
Humans certainly did not avoid eating fruits; they ate what was available.
Secondly, in nature animal food normally contains way more protein than fat. Fat was a luxury.
Even fruit, before agriculture, was much lower in sugar, and much harder to obtain in significant quantities (except in the tropics).
Yes.
But lower in sugar simply means that you need to eat more.
Herbivores often continue eating throughout the day. Not carnivores.
Are carnivores better off for that reason?
dangerous advice if we say "you just need 100g a day of animal foods". We need way more than that.
An indication of how much we need is our storage/production capacity of vitamins.
Vitamin C, for example is produced inside the body of most animals. Simply because fruits are not on their diet.
Evolution has eliminated the production of vitamin C in those animals that are very frequent fruit eaters. Such as humans.
Another example is vitamin B12. Humans only start lacking vitamin B12 after years of not eating any food of animal origin. This is an indication for that naturally, humans may have gone without access to animal food for extended periods of time.
We specially need a lot of animal fat, and the vegetable fat from avocados and nuts will never compare to animal fat.
Do you think that omega fats recommendations are wrong?
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby mario91 » Sun 24 Mar 2019 05:37

Thanks for replying RRM.
First of all, let me say that I'm just trying to launch the discourse, and I'm skeptical/unsure about mostly everything regarding nutriton, cause I honestly think we still know so little.

I don't doubt that it's easy to absorb vitamin C and certain B vitamins from plants, because they're just loaded with it. But plants are far from complete. They lack B12, D, and there are studies saying it's actually pretty hard to humans to convert carotenoids into vitamin A. Plants also lack the essential fatty acids and aminoacids present only in animal foods. So, if we both agree that animal foods are much more complete foods to humans than fruits, why are you telling us to eat 95% fruits and 5% animal foods? It just doesn't make sense, and I even think it's just really bad advise. I just don't see 100g being enough.

No tribe eats only 100g of animal foods a day. All tribes rely heavily on animal foods, weather they're eskimos or they're living in the tropics with acess to lots of fruit. That also tells us something.

On carbs, I just don't think they're our natural diet (in abundance). All humans naturally eat mostly fat and protein. Like I said, even tropical tribes with acess to lots of fruit eat a lot of animal foods. The concern is simple: diabetes, blood sugar fluctuations, etc. Carbs even feed cancer. While eating significant ammounts of fat and protein don't give us any problems. Like so many other things there's still no definitive theories on this, so I'd just go with what is natural, and eating 90% fruits really doesn't seem natural to me, I doubt even tropical humans would have acess to that much, and I don't believe we all came from the tropics, or if we did we have changed a lot since then.

On fat, depends on the animals. I just saw Gordon Ramsey open up a wild boar the other day, and the thing was loaded with fat. Fatty fish are also loaded with fat (the meat is 10-15% fat). Same with eggs. Protein is for sure more available, but I really don't agree that fat is that scarce. And in the modern world it's just more essential than ever to cleanse and lubricate our bodies.

On fruit being lower in sugar in the past, and much less available, it just means that we have never evolved eating this much sugar, as in a 90% fruit diet, or even in standard modern diets.

On vitamin C, I've been hearing that the DDRs are exaggerated, or that you just need a lot more when eating a lot of carbs. Also, some meats and organs have vitamin C. Even if vitamin C indicates that humans are plant eaters (which I agree), it doesn't necessarily indicate that we're massive plant eaters. One orange has 100% of the current DDR, same for some berries or one tomato.

On omega fats of plants, well, they're just much higher in omega 6 on average than quality animal foods (grass-fed etc). There are also studies saying we can't convert plant omega 3 into certain essential omega 3 fatty acids that only come from animals (can't recall the names). But it's not just that. Animal fat is much more similar to the fat of our bodies, same from protein. That makes me believe that it's just much more nourishing.

In short, I can't really point to the proper scientific reasons and proper studies, because I think we just know so little yet, and studies quite often contradict each other. I prefer to look at what's natural, what humans eat in nature, and I can't in any way believe that it's 90% fruit 10% animals, since not even tropical tribes eat that way. And the vast majority of humans, the ones who don't live in the tropics, certainly don't. And I think it might be quite dangerous to stray from the natural path that way.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby mario91 » Sun 24 Mar 2019 05:56

TL;DR

It's quite unlike that any human population has ever relied on 90% fruits 10% animals, and it's certain that the vast majority never did and still don't. Add that to we still not having many certainties on nutriton, add that to animal foods being 100% healthy, add that to being much more complete and nutritious than fruits... why do you recommend eating 90% fruits? I just see no reason whatsoever, and I think it just might be dangerous, so why advocate a dietary principle that might be dangerous when there's just absolutely no need for it...
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby RRM » Sun 24 Mar 2019 17:38

Plants also lack the essential fatty acids and aminoacids present only in animal foods.
Exactly which essential amino acid do plants lack?
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby mario91 » Sun 24 Mar 2019 22:15

RRM wrote:
Sun 24 Mar 2019 17:38
Plants also lack the essential fatty acids and aminoacids present only in animal foods.
Exactly which essential amino acid do plants lack?
Creatine, carnitine, taurine, and some others I think. I don't know if they're "essential", or how essential, but this, along with all the other nutrition aspects, only shows that plants are not complete foods to humans, while animal foods are. You yourself say that the protein quality in animal foods is just much higher. And I've been hearing many doctors and researchers from the Weston A. Price crowd saying that plant proteins are not even well absorbed and are pretty incomplete. Same for the fats, same for all the micronutrients. Animal foods also have certain nutrients like heme-iron and conjugated linoleic acid that we might not deem extremely essential today, but who knows, maybe they are. Just why consume 90% fruits if 1) that has never been our natural diet, 2) we're still miles away from the cientific certainty that it's safe? That's a much stronger question than all the nutritient-specific ones.
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby panacea » Mon 25 Mar 2019 14:07

I'm now eating a diet of only one food - raw milk. Technically I'm vegetarian because it's not the flesh of an animal, but it's obviously a zero plant-food diet. Wouldn't believe the number of people that are 'shocked' that raw milk is a complete food (even when it comes from cows or goats) and contains everything the body needs (in my case about a gallon of it a day). You would think people would believe their eyes over dogma - baby human, baby cow, baby goat grows to twice their size on raw milk? Can't be a complete food! Digests in about 27 minutes each meal (20 minutes for goat milk), 4 meals a day (one quart at a time). Prep time is 2 seconds, opening the lid. Simple, easy, humane, perfect nutrition, no worries.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby mario91 » Mon 25 Mar 2019 19:22

panacea wrote:
Mon 25 Mar 2019 14:07
I'm now eating a diet of only one food - raw milk. Technically I'm vegetarian because it's not the flesh of an animal, but it's obviously a zero plant-food diet. Wouldn't believe the number of people that are 'shocked' that raw milk is a complete food (even when it comes from cows or goats) and contains everything the body needs (in my case about a gallon of it a day). You would think people would believe their eyes over dogma - baby human, baby cow, baby goat grows to twice their size on raw milk? Can't be a complete food! Digests in about 27 minutes each meal (20 minutes for goat milk), 4 meals a day (one quart at a time). Prep time is 2 seconds, opening the lid. Simple, easy, humane, perfect nutrition, no worries.
Cool. I love raw milk. Wish I could tolerate it, though. I bought some from a farm, organic, certified, all that stuff, gives me immediate diarrhea and flu-like symptoms. I've heard that the casein and the lactose are hard on the gut, so I personally don't think we should drink a lot of raw milk. I'd rather consume raw dairy - butter has no lactose nor casein, and cheese and yogurt/kefir are fermented, i.e. pre-digested. For instance, I got absolutely no problem with yogurt and kefir, although cheese gives me problems.

Besides, I've also heard that liquid forms of calories are very taxing for the body if you're eating nothing but that. You could definitely use some fiber (not the ridiculous ammounts that the government recommends), or just something solid.

Most of all: why do such a restrictive diet? Raw meat, fish, eggs, dairy and fruits are just as easy to prepare. Or if you're eating pork or chicken (animals not safe to eat raw) it's also pretty easy to cook and eat with some raw fruit, instead of making an overly complex 1 hour dish.
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby Aytundra » Tue 26 Mar 2019 02:22

panacea wrote:
Mon 25 Mar 2019 14:07
I'm now eating a diet of only one food - raw milk. Technically I'm vegetarian because it's not the flesh of an animal, but it's obviously a zero plant-food diet. Wouldn't believe the number of people that are 'shocked' that raw milk is a complete food (even when it comes from cows or goats) and contains everything the body needs (in my case about a gallon of it a day). You would think people would believe their eyes over dogma - baby human, baby cow, baby goat grows to twice their size on raw milk? Can't be a complete food! Digests in about 27 minutes each meal (20 minutes for goat milk), 4 meals a day (one quart at a time). Prep time is 2 seconds, opening the lid. Simple, easy, humane, perfect nutrition, no worries.
How long have you tried your diet?
Is it expensive?
... And do you smell like a goat??
What does your skin look like?
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Aytundra
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby Aytundra » Tue 26 Mar 2019 03:18

Do you get constipated?
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby Emeira » Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:20

I also did this raw milk diet once... will never do it again :x my body didn't like it
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby panacea » Sat 30 Mar 2019 15:06

Diarrhea (or constipation) is a frequent symptom of the raw milk diet.. for the first few days. If you do a 24-36 hour fast before then, most people don't have that symptom, it's also recommended to take small amounts at first if you have any digestive problem history. Also, a lot of people think they are constipated just because they aren't eliminating, but for some sick people the body will digest so much of the milk because it is starved that there is basically no waste, or the waste is held for longer than usual, but it's not like they will be straining and feeling like they need to go - that's not true constipation.

Casein shouldn't be a problem unless you damaged your kidneys - even then, you can heal them by just taking small amounts of milk slowly every 30 minutes for weeks or months until the kidneys are healed. Otherwise people do fine with a pint per meal.

Lactose also isn't a problem at all for healthy raw milk because the bacteria in the milk break down the lactose, even if your body doesn't produce lactase. For very sensitive people, simply letting the milk warm to room temperature and/or sit at room temperature for 12 hours or so should fix any of those kinds of problems, as the bacteria begin breaking it down then before it even gets in your gut. Naturally fermented milk is beneficial anyway, but I don't do it just because I prefer the taste of fresh milk.

A lot of diets claim 'detox reactions' to blanket over just bad side-effects, but in the case of raw milk, there really is just a detox phase. Most people have first a digestion reaction (either constipation or diarrhea) the first few days, then on week 2-3 of only raw milk, they usually have skin reactions (like boils) if they are old and have been eating poorly for decades, and especially sick people.

My skin is the best its ever been on the raw milk diet, the first sign of this were my elbows which were always rough from using a computer - I never exfoliate them or do anything else to them. On the raw milk diet the skin there is baby smooth.

Another frequent reaction to the raw milk diet is a white coating on the tongue - apparently it's normal and will go away after weeks or months, just depends on the person. Probably it is another way the body eliminates toxins, just like with the skin, bowels, gums, nasal mucus, eye cavities, ears, etc..

No I don't smell like a goat or cow or anything. Some people who have been on the milk diet for a very long time (many years) have stated that people that aren't on a similar diet smell 'off'. Also, if you go on this diet and take hot baths (like 99 deg F to 104 def F) for like an hour or hour and a half to help the skin eliminate toxins, people have noticed they can smell the toxins sometimes, that they were subjected to decades earlier, not just that person but even husband and wife have both smelled it for instance from one individual (the husband for example) so it's not subjective.

The diet is very pricey, but I was spending a lot on diet even when I was on a junk diet. The price for me is about $14 a day which is very high, but I get my milk shipped across 3 states. If I lived in the state where my milk was made, the price would be only $7 a day. You also save a lot by not needing any medicines/supplements, shampoos, tooth paste, cooking equipment, freezers, dinnerware, etc. Although some people will still buy those things I'm sure. Also keep in mind I'm a younger 6'8" tall sedentary male who consumes a gallon a day, most women and small elderly men would need about a pint less than me, which could mean 25% savings.
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby panacea » Sat 30 Mar 2019 15:29

Also I've been on the diet for about 3 months now, before this I was on a raw very low carb diet (raw meat, raw eggs, tiny amounts raw milk, tiny amounts of unheated honey, raw cheese). That diet I would say is an equal diet for maintaining health, but the taste is not nearly as good and it doesn't make me feel as good as I do on raw milk (after the cleansing reactions). On raw milk my body feels warmer, best way to put it, and I have no strong cravings for junk food even though I'm consuming carbs/sugar, which is something I previously thought impossible. The cleansing reactions only came about after the raw milk mono diet, probably because there is a lot less effort required for digestion.

For people attempting the mostly raw meat diet, all I can say is you really need to get fresh never frozen grassfed beef, the taste makes all of the difference. I tried several times to do it with frozen grassfed beef and the taste made me gag. However, raw milk is 100x better than even fresh beef, to me at least. I could happily drink a half gallon at once easily if I exercised.
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby RRM » Sat 30 Mar 2019 18:03

mario91 wrote:
Sun 24 Mar 2019 22:15
RRM wrote:
Sun 24 Mar 2019 17:38
Plants also lack the essential fatty acids and aminoacids present only in animal foods.
Exactly which essential amino acid do plants lack?
Creatine, carnitine, taurine, and some others I think. I don't know if they're "essential", or how essential, but this, along with all the other nutrition aspects, only shows that plants are not complete foods to humans
They are not essential. (creatine is derived from glycine + arginine, carnitine from lysine, and taurine from cysteine)
It means that we don't need them from food.
That means that the lack of these amino acids in plants food does not make them incomplete.
Correct?
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Postby RRM » Sat 30 Mar 2019 18:11

Great to see you again, Panacea
panacea wrote:
Sat 30 Mar 2019 15:29
On raw milk my body feels warmer, best way to put it, and I have no strong cravings for junk food
That is because the opioid peptides in milk satisfy those 'junk food receptors'

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