RRM wrote: ↑Sat 30 Mar 2019 18:11
Great to see you again, Panacea
panacea wrote: ↑Sat 30 Mar 2019 15:29
On raw milk my body feels warmer, best way to put it, and I have no strong cravings for junk food
That is because the opioid peptides in milk satisfy those 'junk food receptors'
That makes sense, I do notice cravings for other foods if I haven't had my milk in a while, milk always satisfies the cravings though and it's delicious, so that makes it easy.
About 'complete foods', for plants or animal foods, I've noticed a trend where raw unprocessed foods are just generally easier to assimilate from what I've read online and experienced myself. Even uncooked raw vegetables which I consider the worst raw food type for humans can be easily utilized when juiced, but I consider that a very expensive multivitamin source, even though it would be 100x better than any pill or processed multivitamin supplement.
Also, we know through observation that raw milk is a complete food, even though it contains very low amounts of certain things like iron - and I mean extremely low. Yet a raw milk mono diet has been used successfully to treat iron anemia. You can also just look to any mammalian baby to see how the baby can grow virtually every organ and tissue in the body as they mature on raw milk to know it's a complete food - yet it lacks the RDA of many categories. Bio-availability plays a big part in dietary needs. The most amazing one to me is our water requirement - which unless you sweat profusely seems to be easily met with foods only. Raw milk is an easy one but even a diet of mostly raw meat and eggs doesn't need any water intake besides that from food. People have to drink an exorbitant amount of 'drinking water' to actually get by these days, and I wonder if that's not a major contributor to health problems, since it's acting a lot like a solvent rather than a hydration source, unless the water is ionized like it is in raw food.
RRM, yes, I had researched (after my last post) that those aminoacids aren't deemed "essential", but then why are all bodybuilders taking a lot of creatine? It only adds to the point that animal foods are more complete and provide more optimal nutrition.
Panacea, I've never consumed any food as addicitive as raw milk. The first time I ordered it, I ordered 10 liters, and I was drinking 2 liters a day while still trying to control myself. I just wanted to drink it all at once (I really suspect it's the opioid peptides, like RRM said, though I don't really see it as a bad thing if babies are supposed to drink it for years, unlike wheat which is completely unnatural to humans). After 3 or 4 days of absolutely no symptoms, the diarrhea, and this super-weird pus-like headache (like I had hot sticky pus in my head) started. I don't believe those are detox symptoms because prior to that I'd already been consuming tons of raw meat, raw wild fish, raw egg yolks, raw butter and raw low-salt cheese (which you can all buy at the supermarket), and I think these foods are just as high-quality and detoxifying as raw milk. From an intuitive standpoint it also seems quite unnatural - no human would ever have acess to a gallon of milk a day in nature. Although, on the other side, milk (and dairy maybe even more so) has always been an extremely important part of the diet of Europeans, because it's basically meat that keeps on giving - you don't have to slaughter cattle for it. That's why commoners a few hundred years ago would consume much more milk and dairy, and rarely meat. But I still think consuming it in the form of dairy products is better for your digestion.
Last edited by mario91 on Sun 31 Mar 2019 14:08, edited 2 times in total.
Also, Panacea, I couldn't agree more that water is not hydrating. In my personal empirical experience, sparkling mineral water is much more satisfying, precisely for containing a lot more electrolytes. But milk and fruit juices (I don't agree that we should drink veg juices, it still has a lot of anti-nutrients) are even way more satisfying. I also suspect this is why people crave salt, to actually retain some of that un-retainable water.
Panacea is there a specific brand of goats milk you buy?
Do you eat egg yolks any more?
RRM, more questions:
What about the calcium content of goats milk is it too much calcium?
Would you be speeding up bone formation and bone aging with the milk?
What about egg yolks?
Egg yolks are for baby chickens.
They grow so fast in that egg, chicks have bones by the time they hatch out after 20 days.
Do egg yolks contain too much calcium?
Do egg yolks contain growth factors?
Why does goat milk or cow milk have too much opioid peptides?
Do egg yolks have opioid peptides?
Egg yolks with vitamin A, D, omega 3 acids, are they better or worse than eggs with less.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
@mario91,
2 liters of raw milk is only about half a gallon, so unless you are a midget that alone probably wasn't enough to maintain normal body weight long-term. I don't think there is any need to control yourself on a raw milk diet, it is high in fat and tends to be difficult to get enough as it is, since it's very filling. Most sick people (the primary group of people that did this diet back in the early 1900's) had to break their milk diet into small frequent meals at first just to be able to drink enough in a day. Almost all of them had detox reactions of some kind at first, but the doctors looked at them as beneficial primarily because the circulation was so improved in the patients even when they were confined to bed rest the entire time. Back in these times, doctors would try everything they could to improve the circulation no matter the disease, which included hot baths, massages, medications, etc, but a few of them that stumbled on raw milk found it was the most profound and lowest risk way to do so.
When I was first reading about all this, it made a lot of sense to me as it tied in perfectly with Buteyko's observations on health, which again is primarily related to increasing circulation by dilating the blood vessels, he just looked at it as a way of 'retaining sufficient carbon dioxide to dilate blood vessels and promote circulation', so he monitored the effects of lifestyle habits and foods on breathing, since he knew that breathing volume controlled carbon dioxide levels.
@Aytundra,
I buy cows milk because it's cheaper, and I'm more used to the taste. The brand doesn't matter, just that the animals are grass fed, no antibiotics and not fed anything with soy. Other than that, I try to get it fresh and never frozen, but to be honest freezing might not have any detrimental effect on bacteria/vitamins, but because I don't know, I stay away from frozen milk. I have been looking for any studies on frozen breast milk and its effects on babies and stuff like that but haven't found anything.
I don't eat egg yolks any more, or any other food besides milk, although I have considered trying unheated honey, since it is also a predigested food, much like milk. But I don't like that it doesn't have fat, it actually tastes bad to me because it lacks fat.
People like the Eskimos also got by on fermented sea food, it's the same principle as raw milk - predigested foods tend to be very good for the body. However, fermented sea food smells repulsive to most cultures.
Opiod peptides are probably addictive to mammals for a reason - to reinforce the babies suckling behavior. Just because they are used by food companies in the last 100 years to get us addicted to processed foods doesn't mean they are bad in their raw dairy form.
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Harvesting milk from goats, cows, sheep, donkeys, etc has been done for at least 10,000 years. As mammals, we are uniquely suited to digest milk, even from other animals. However I've seen a YouTube video where some ducklings got separated from their mother, and a house cat happened to give birth to kittens at the same time, and adopted the ducklings. The ducklings, which don't naturally drink milk, ended up suckling the house cat for milk because it was available and grew up to be normal ducks. Raw milk is quite similar to blood. Adults just need more milk than babies to maintain larger bodies. The primary driver in whether raw milk is good for you is the health of the animal, but in my opinion, it cannot be beaten in terms of humaneness and nutrition, dairy animals (prey animals) do all the work creating the milk to sustain humans and their young, by digesting plants, fertilizing the soil with their manure, while the humans protect the prey animals with fences and ensure the land isn't over-grazed in specific areas. I can't think of a more symbiotic and sustainable way to live with nature as modern humans.
Raw milk is also illegal to sell in many areas of the U.S. and Canada, and probably places in Europe. In the U.S., this happened because back in the day, there was such a growing demand for milk (all raw at the time) that in order to keep up with the demand, shortcuts were taken and cows were kept in unsanitary conditions (too many cows too close together, fed poorly/unnatural food, given antibiotics etc to try and band-aid the underlying problem, etc). I've read reports where dairy farmers back in the day would put their feet in the full milk buckets to cool themselves off in the heat - they really had no standards, and of course the mass-harvested raw milk made a lot of people very sick.
Even today, conventional dairy farms would kill people in droves if the milk wasn't pasteurized, because the conditions are so horrible. You can watch documentaries about these farms, the stench and conditions would make you never drink pasteurized milk again. But they know they can get away with it because 99% of it will be killed off via pasteurization.
All over the world though, people drink raw milk (mostly from goats), and are just fine, just as they have been for thousands of years. Until recently, the Maasai tribe lived traditionally exclusively on raw milk, meat, and blood, and they were healthy.
Panacea, I just don't think milk is in any way superior to dairy/meat/fish/eggs and therefore I see no reason to do such restrictive and sometimes inaccessible diet.
As Weston A Price showed with his visits to many cultures, there's a variety of diets that can provide optimum nutrition and growth, all of them involving raw and often raw fermented foods. But to me raw milk is special because it can be harvested in large enough amounts from several different types of animals, and it can feed theoretically any mammal - regardless of if they're herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore. That's amazing to me. Normally you wouldn't think a cow and a human or a goat and a dog could eat exactly the same thing and thrive - but on milk they can.
Also I look at its simplicity as a good thing, in a modern world where most people are confused about what's actually healthy, raw milk can certainly keep things simple.
Two of the most important things for me are taste and accessibility, if it doesn't taste good, I won't stick to the diet, also when I tried the wai diet years ago my main problem was sourcing reliable high quality fruit, I find sourcing raw animal foods and even raw milk vastly easier than sourcing fruit, but it's definitely harder to source raw milk than sourcing fresh meat. However, if I do the meat-based diet, I also have to source good types of eggs, fish, etc to get all the nutrients I need, and the combined sourcing effort of this is much harder than just sourcing good raw milk in my case.
It's also quite easy to store and prepare compared to many other equivalent foods like fermented/aged fish and meat to get same easy digestion benefits.
Raw cheese is definitely easier to source than all of the above for me, and tastes delicious, but I don't know if I can live on just cheese, it would be worth looking into.
I see. Well, you have your reasons then. Everything has its ups and downs. Raw cheese doesn't have the liquid part of milk and it's months old food, so it lacks the B vitamins and probably also the enzymes. But it's also a good source of K2 and probiotics. And it's great food on the go. Lately I've been eating it more (I found out it only gave me problems when eaten with bread) because it's extremely cheap and acessible, just have to go to the supermarket next door. I eat raw deep-frozen (to take care of the parasites) fish, very cheap and acessible too, but I don't really like it. My favorite food is and has always been red meat, but grass fed it's 16 euros a kilo and grain-fed 9 euros. I crave at least half a kilo a day so I can't afford grass fed. Wish I could still digest raw egg yolks, but over the years I screwed my gut with medications.
mario91 wrote: ↑Sun 31 Mar 2019 14:01
but then why are all bodybuilders taking a lot of creatine?
Because bodybuilders go for over-the-top muscle volume.
Muscle volume is only maximized when the exercised muscle is overloaded with energy (creatine is muscle energy) immediately after exercise. Taking creatine maximizes energy loading, and thus muscle grow.
I hope you agree with me that excessive muscle volume is not essential to people in general.
It only adds to the point that animal foods are more complete and provide more optimal nutrition.
Labelling non-essential nutrients as essential does not add credit to your claim.
mario91 wrote: ↑Sun 31 Mar 2019 14:01
but then why are all bodybuilders taking a lot of creatine?
Because bodybuilders go for over-the-top muscle volume.
Muscle volume is only maximized when the exercised muscle is overloaded with energy (creatine is muscle energy) immediately after exercise. Taking creatine maximizes energy loading, and thus muscle grow.
I hope you agree with me that excessive muscle volume is not essential to people in general.
It only adds to the point that animal foods are more complete and provide more optimal nutrition.
Labelling non-essential nutrients as essential does not add credit to your claim.
Fair enough. I'm just saying that animal foods have useful nutrients for humans that plants don't. Maybe creatine isn't the best example, but still, we've already discussed several nutrients, striclty essential or not, that only animal foods have, while no nutrient is exclusive to plants (a person who eats organs and doesn't overload on carbs doesn't even need plants for vitamin C). And the fact that animal proteins and fats are just much higher quality and much more absorbable. I still think it makes no sense to advocate 100g of animal foods a day. You could advocate that to acne prone people, for a limited period until they clear up (I don't think raw animal protein will make any difference but let's assume), but then make them know that in the long run they need much more than that, I'd say at least 300 grams.
The main problem with animal foods is that they need to be high quality (such as grass fed, rbst free, free-range, wild caught, fresh never frozen, etc) which jacks up the price, is harder to source, and it needs to be eaten raw, which isn't palatable to most modern people. That's the real reason that fruits are superior. The only contender for me is raw milk and maybe some honey in terms of raw but is still enjoyable as well as makes you feel great. Even most animal food supplements like most fish oils are traps because they're so highly processed/heated. It's really hard to feel good on a natural diet when it tastes cold and like crap, unless it's fruit or fruit smoothies (or milk) or a combination of course. If you raise a kid eating raw meat/organs then no problem they will be used to it, as many ancient cultures were, but for our spoiled modern people that need a healthy diet, they just won't stick to it unless they're dying. They will end up cooking the stuff, usually more than just super rare, which makes it dry and tasteless so then later they end up putting all kinds of sauces and spices all over their once nutrient dense, enzyme and bacteria rich pricey food, and now all they have is a slightly-better-than-mcdonalds patty.
I'm a big fan of keto diets, as they are far superior to modern cooked (SAD) diets. The reality is though most people on keto are eating a cooked junk keto diet, or a cooked natual keto diet, which are better than cooked carb diets, but still not good enough for true and lasting health.
Raw carb diets (like fruits, milk, honey, even vegetables when juiced) are just as good as raw keto diets though. It's not that important to be ketogenic if you're eating a good diet in the first place, it only makes sense if you want to cheat and eat cooked food as it reduces or eliminates the insulin sensitivity problem, and also helps with cravings a lot.
In my opinion though the optimal diet is one with a lot (or exclusively) fermented or naturally soured foods, those are the real super foods. Like clabbered milk (yuck) or fermented fish, eggs, or meat (double yuck). Unfortunately they don't taste good to me either. Such is the cruel nature of this world where most things have to die so other things can live and most things are a pain in the ass that are good for you.
mario91 wrote: ↑Mon 08 Apr 2019 05:17
make them know that in the long run they need much more than that, I'd say at least 300 grams.
Can you back that up?
Look up the studies/research of the Weston A. Price foundation. They have several researchers backing all the claims I've been making. But, once again, I don't care too much about studies, and I'm not gonna go into a study war argument, because 1 we know so little yet, 2 it's a very, very corrupted environment by lobbying. As an alternative nutritional figure you should know this better than anyone else, how all your evidence regarding the harms of cooked food and vegetables is not really scientifically disputed, yet there's a tremendous lack of studies on raw food itself, and the scientific dogma still heavily opposes raw animal foods, and sees no problem with cooking and eating vegetables.
We should focus more on empirical evidence, and to that I've already added a lot to my argument. We should admit that we don't really understand nutrition to a safe degree to deviate that much from what has always constituted the majority of our diet, specially during the bulk of our evolution (before agriculture).
I go to the supermarket and I get:
- several types of wild deep frozen fish, can't get much better quality than that
- grass fed beef from Argentina and Ireland
- organic eggs (but even the simple free-range ones taste amazing raw)
- regional, artisan raw sheep cheese quite low in salt
I phone my local organic farm and they'll deliver me (for free):
- all kinds of cuts (inc. organs) from 4 species of organic animals, ruminants are grass-fed, certified organic
- raw milk from grass-fed organic cows
I spend 300 euros a month. On Wai it was only 50-70 less, just not a significant difference in any way.
Fruits will never be superior to any semi-quality animal foods, even if throughly cooked. Look at frutarians, they're all sick and malnourished. They're the worst looking vegans. That's all the evidence I need. Never met a non-zombie looking frutarian, never seen one on Youtube, and have heard dozens of non-sucess (to say the least) stories. Never heard more than 1 or 2 sucess stories. Needless to say, Wai is extremely different from frutarian, because the body can already make a lot with 100 grams of raw high-quality animal foods, but, again, why impose that limit? There's absolutely no reason for that.
Carbs are the only macro that is not essential for humans, yet you advocate a carb-based diet. Carbs are the only macro that can lead to disease when overconsumed, yet you advocate a carb-based diet. Carbs are the only macro that will feed existing diseases (I'd argue most of the modern diseases), yet you advocate a carb-based diet.
For me, the strongest proof for a ketogenic diet doesn't come from any study, but just common sense. It's simpke: were where the carbs before agriculture? Nowhere, we've always subsisted of 80%+ animals! Fat and protein. Even ALL tropical tribes (with no exception) have always consumed high ammounts of animal protein+fat. Humans in most zones have evolved eating animals and being in ketosis most of the year, up until the summer, where we'd eat fruits and some other plants (still nothing in comparison to the ammount of animal foods). So it makes sense that carbs are making us sick because we have evolved eating very little and due to the fat demonization and the rest of the government propaganda we're now eating carb-based diets for the first time in history, while blaming modern disease on ancient foods (but that's another story).
