Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

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panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by panacea »

Wai diet is in line with what Weston Price and the foundation are all about, fruits are live food with bacteria and enzymes, just like raw animal food. Wai is also OK as far as I know with things like raw beef and sushi.

Weston price found that people were healthy as long as they ate this live food with lots of good bacteria and enzymes as well as the nutrients - even sourdough bread was a staple of one culture and they were healthy.. so even fermented grain is viable. The essence of this is basically that bacteria and enzyme rich food are easier for us to digest/assimilate the nutrients, and they may help our gut biome as well. A lot of people simply can't easily and affordably source high quality fruit in sufficient quantities year round, but it's still a viable diet that should cause no bad health effects otherwise, just like Weston Price's tribal diets.

An entirely fruitarian diet might be asking too much of the body, as far as I know even frugivore apes/monkeys will eat insects (a type of animal food) regularly. Termites for example, as far as I know, are a good source of protein and fat, in contrast to most fruits.

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In response to your recent post, I will just say that for the majority of my country (USA), sourcing/affording your diet would be quite a challenge compared to what people are used to, and eating it raw 99.99% of them would never go for it. Also, carbs may not be required during the later stages of life, but you better have them during breastfeeding. Additionally, people love to cook carb based foods. Just like I stated previously, if you cook and otherwise process zero-carb foods and live on that, you will get similar or entirely new diseases. What Weston Price found out is that the key to healthy diet is bacteria and enzymes in nutrient dense food, if you cook that all away even on zero carb, you're going to have problems, they might just not be diabetes specifically. Weston Price found people doing well on fermented grain-based foods! So, the carb vs fat vs protein thing is too simplistic to look at it this way, just because the vast majority of cooked/processed junk food in stores is high in carb.
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by panacea »

One thing I want to challenge though is that the Weston Price Foundation as far as I know does not support cooking your raw animal foods thoroughly or at all, at least not regularly or for most of its consumption. It does recommend cooking some foods such as vegetables to make them more bio-available, but I don't know why you would be eating vegetables in the first place. Regardless of what their websites say though, traditional cultures didn't cook their animal foods (at least not regularly or for a large portion of their animal food diet, if they did they would be unhealthy), that would entirely be a waste of nutrition. It's not just that raw animal foods were a little better for you, the enzymes and bacteria are vital to proper digestion (as well as probably the natural state of fats, proteins, etc).
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

Those people were healthy because the carbs (which were never in higher ammounts than fats and proteins) and grains were the only crap in their lives. Today, we are bombarded with filth from all angles (pollution, radiation, chemicals), and we necessarily need a ketogenic diet to cleanse toxins with its raw fat, to stop our much-more-numerous-than-before cancer cells from progressing, and to stop our overwhelming insulin resistance tendencies from progressing. We need to abstain from anti-nutrients completely for the same reasons, and also why would you eat grains when you have absolutely no necessity. Those people did it out of necessity.

The "let's just tell the masses to eat fruit because they're lazy" is a really crappy argument, I'll say no more.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

And for the record, if you're so much into Weston A. Price, never has he found a frutarian or plant-based, or mostly frutarian or plant-based tribe or traditional community, who were healthy. We just don't know if it works! But if you wanna play russian roulette with your health (not even YOUR health, cause you're not doing it, but you somehow want the masses to do it because they can do no better) because "muh quality meat is so hard to source" (which is not, already debunked that, plus all fruits you'll find today are man-made, full of pesticides and if you're gonna buy organic (which many times means little) then you will truly spend a fortune), then go for it.
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by panacea »

Well first of all I'm for a milk diet, which is very high in fat as it's whole milk, I wouldn't eat fermented bread or fruits as long as I have milk, but I don't avoid things like raspberries or bananas if I run out of milk either. People on all milk diets actually go through very noticeable detox reactions, detox reactions tend to happen when the body is given adequate nutrition and a partial rest from digestion (so basically, this means either fermented food or milk which basically is semi fermenting all the time, especially inside the body at body temperature). Ripe fruits are basically a form of fermented foods as well. Humans are omnivores, as evidenced by our teeth (which is better evidence than any ancient culture eating something). Some people may value eating more fruits simply for the taste, and I don't see anything wrong with that if they get some animal food too.

And despite Weston A Price not finding humans to know if it works, we know it works in many apes, our closest animal relatives. Do you really think if you ate exactly like a wild chimpanzee you would be wanting nutritionally? I don't.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

panacea wrote: Thu 18 Apr 2019 05:14 Humans are omnivores, as evidenced by our teeth (which is better evidence than any ancient culture eating something).

And despite Weston A Price not finding humans to know if it works, we know it works in many apes, our closest animal relatives. Do you really think if you ate exactly like a wild chimpanzee you would be wanting nutritionally? I don't.
No, we are not standard omnivores. We can't eat digest plants. We are frugocarnivores, who have evolved being in ketosis most of the year. We have evolved eating way more meat than fruit, that's just a fact.

On apes, first I don't believe we are evolved apes. I believe we share a common ancestor. But even if we were evolved apes, that proves nothing about our diet. Gorillas are also very similar to chimpanzees, yet their diet and digestive tracts are radically different. So is ours, we have much smaller colons than chimpanzees, to ferment fruits. If we are apes, we are apes who have descended from the trees and went to colder climates, WHERE many of us have evolved, so it makes no sense to assume that we should eat like chimpanzees.

And yes, what traditional tribes and pre-agricultural humans ate is much more reliable evidence because those are facts. Whether we're chimp-like or not are only theories yet.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

There's evidence that carbs fuel cancer. There's evidence that carbs fuel insulin resistance. There's evidence that carbs fuel growth hormones and make you age. To advocate a carb-based diet, again, with absolutely no advantage, is just very irrational. When we don't know, we take the safer route.
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by panacea »

Also the man-made fruit thing isn't really a valid argument, man has been cultivating animals in much the same way as he has been with plants. We breed the ones with traits we like. For example cows, dogs, goats, etc from the animal side. There's similar hazards to raw animal food for plant food as well, for example when farmers treat the plants/grasses that our animal food eats with pesticides, and it gets in to the animals flesh/milk. Even worse, what about when the farmer destroys the quality of the soil and the poor animals have to eat the low quality plants that grow in it? Race horses back in the day were basically a function of how good the soil (and subsequently their diet) was, when it faltered, so did the horses. Nutrition goes all the way down to what the food our food eats, and in some cases what that food ate.

There's no evidence that carbs fuel cancer or insulin resistance on their own, that's just ridiculous. What about all the wild apes in recorded history that don't have cancer or diabetes? Clearly 'carbs' are not the problem but other factors like I've been talking about are: the quality of the food whether carb or not, and how its processed, if it's cooked or not, etc. determine these things. For example, we know that cooking creates bad effects like carcinogens, even in beef, do we then say that beef is linked to cancer? No.. that would be wrong..
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by panacea »

How is a frugocarnivore not an omnivore? Fruits are derived from plants, as are vegetable and even grass juices, and we can digest all of those plant-derived foods. The only thing we can't digest that I know of is cellulose, and of course anything bound to enzyme inhibitors, so all other plant-derived nutrition is on the menu. While these foods may not be as good as animal foods, they are certainly a lot better than twinkies, breakfast cereals, and cola.. there's no harm recommending this to people.

I agree we don't ferment foods as well as many other animals, including cows and apes, that's why it's so beneficial to eat already fermented or fermenting foods, of which fruits are one, milk is one, and even high meat or fermented fish or eggs (chicken or fish eggs). Fermentation in these cases is really just predigestion outside our body, making foods that would otherwise not be so easily assimilated easier to assimilate, even if we could already do it, doing less work in this area always helps the body.

Cooking animal foods and even fruits (if anyone is crazy enough to cook fruit) has the opposite effect of fermentation, making it harder to digest/assimilate.
Last edited by panacea on Thu 18 Apr 2019 05:51, edited 1 time in total.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

There's research that people on keto diets have high rates of cancer remission.
And we are not apes. Apes have evolved eating carb-based, we haven't.

But my main argument in this post wasn't even carb vs keto. I had a more moderate proposition: that Wai dieters shouldn't be advocating only 100 grams a day of what has always been our staple food, specially when they don't even claim any advantage in such restriction. If it only has an advantage on acne, then we should tell people: consume more animal foods after the acne is gone. We're just playing with fire, promoting a quasi-vegan diet when all traditional populations have been heavily meat-based, simply based on the 100% unproven and 100% farfetched theory that "we should eat like chimpanzees". We're playing with what we don't know for absolutely no advantage, it's highly irrational in my opinion.
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by panacea »

There's also a correlation of people that do keto diets simply eat healthier, I've been there myself. It's a lot harder to find some super processed zero-carb foods to live on. The main ones I know of are the sugar-alcohol substitute candies like the chocolates in the candy section of the store. Eating more than a couple of these gives you lots of gas, almost explosive diarrhea, sharting, lots of nice effects to prevent you from eating it all the time, unlike most regular candy. But I bet you if you lived on this junk keto food, you'd die of something just as fast as you'd die from cancer. Junk food is junk food, and the market for keto junk food is just now surfacing. Oversimplifying nutrition to just be 'keto is okay' will allow humanity to make the same exact mistakes they made with milk, beef, etc, and turn it into a worthless and dead substitute food that causes disease. Carbs really aren't the bad guy, processing and otherwise fucking with live food, making it dead and altered from heat or freezing or both or some other chemistry effects is the problem.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

You keep putting the words in my mouth that "just keto is ok". I'm tired of stressing that it's equally important to stay away from junk food. However, here, we're comparing fruit based to keto based, that's what's on the table, and there's plenty of evidence that the later is better, even if for the simple fact that it's our natural diet. There's evidence that "healthy carbs" create problems, such as agravatting diabetes and tooth decay, and yes even feeding cancer, even if to a lesser extent than junk carbs. I'm arguing that we've done so much harm through generations that we should start playing it safe for now.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

However, I said that eating cooked meat based is still better than fruit based, because cooked meat is not comparable to proper junk food. Processed meats or deep-fried would be the equivalent to cookies, not meat cooked in traditional ways.
panacea
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by panacea »

Yet you are oversimplifying and saying that meat is good, plants are bad. Cooking any animal food makes it a junk food in my opinion. Pasteurizing (a fancy word for cooking) milk does the same to milk. Well, how do you know that cooking meat or milk is okay? You don't.. in fact all of the evidence suggests that cooking is terrible for us. So what hope is there that people will all go back to eating raw animal food? Very little in my opinion, unless it tastes good - like milk and fruits do. So, practically and rationally, the best hope for humanity is to get them eating raw milk and fruits, since it's actually viable for their palates.

You have just completely ignored the historical evidence you uphold so highly by saying cooking meat traditionally is okay, since there's no evidence nor common sense to support that. No other animals which are healthy on raw meat cook their meat, why on Earth would you cook it? Have you ever tasted cooked meat with no additives, flavorings, or anything else of any kind? The stuff tastes dry, bland, and awful, especially if previously frozen, not a way to live.
Last edited by panacea on Thu 18 Apr 2019 06:13, edited 2 times in total.
mario91
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Re: Wai should be high in animal foods and low in fruit/carbs

Post by mario91 »

Anyway, this is getting too complicated. There's room for discussion in all of this, and I'm not even claiming that being non-keto is being irrational. What I really wanted to stress, once again, was the 100 grams of animal foods restriction, and I guess I've made my point.
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