hallucinogens

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Mr. PC
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hallucinogens

Post by Mr. PC »

I'm curious if anyone has knowledge of the long term effects of hallucinogenic drugs, backed by scientific research.

I'm interested in possibly experimenting with either DMT, LSD, Psilocybin mushrooms, of which there is a lot of writing stating minimal long term effects, as well as strong long term side effects.

I'm interested in experiencing different states of mind, but not if the long term negative effects outweigh the benefit of having that experience. The only Pub Med articles I can find don't give conclusions about long term health, but study only specific effects, e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15780487 which is not useful for my question.

Anyone have better research?
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RRM
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by RRM »

These are chemically induced, so what is the benefit of having that experience?
overkees
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by overkees »

In my experience tryptamines can help with seeing life in the big picture, without cultural boundaries. Everything seems to be more connected and liquid instead of hard divided and solid. This can help greatly to overcome everyday troubles, having a more divine feeling and getting rid of our big ego. It gives you a much more balanced, calmer feeling over long term.

The risks are very small, and when done under correct circumstances and right dosage it can be a very meaningful experience that will stay with you for the rest of your life.

The toxicity of tryptamines are ridiculously small and they have been doing alot of research regarding using them as antidepressants on people.
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RRM
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by RRM »

overkees wrote:In my experience tryptamines can help with seeing life in the big picture, without cultural boundaries.
...it can be a very meaningful experience that will stay with you for the rest of your life.
I think that actual life experience is a much, much better tool.
they have been doing alot of research regarding using them as antidepressants on people.
Thats not really a "pro".
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Mr. PC
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by Mr. PC »

The benefit of an experience based in reality is that it will help you learn about reality, in order to make better decisions, based on more information, in the future.

I think the reason for this kind of experience is partially hedonistic / in the moment pleasure, and partially that it would show me a world not based in reality. It also I'm hoping will give me a different perspective of the world.

I've tried meditation and it doesn't work for me. I do feel like music can induce different states of mind without and chemical drug, but I simply want to experience something new and different.
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by mario91 »

Mr. PC wrote:The benefit of an experience based in reality is that it will help you learn about reality, in order to make better decisions, based on more information, in the future.

I think the reason for this kind of experience is partially hedonistic / in the moment pleasure, and partially that it would show me a world not based in reality. It also I'm hoping will give me a different perspective of the world.

I've tried meditation and it doesn't work for me. I do feel like music can induce different states of mind without and chemical drug, but I simply want to experience something new and different.
Psychedelic drugs might give you some cool experiences once is while, but they'll always damage your brain.
I know of people who got insane for a lifetime, by doing it the very first and only time.
Even if those shitty drugs didn't do any brain damage, hallucinogens would still be very silly. All they do is tricking your brain. They don't get you "high", they get you down instead. Not down depressed, but down on the level of counsciousness.
Meditation is the only thing that gives you an authentic higher level of counscience. You just gotta give it a lot of time and have a lot of patience. Read Osho, he's the master on the subject. I just went on this journey recently, and each time I see life in a more clear and truthful way. There's nothing more beautiful and orgasmic than truth.
And music is also a form of meditation, Osho said. That's why music lovers are always deeper people, in my opinion.
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by panacea »

There's a lot of cultural bias for and against mind altering substances, even recreational ones, based solely on bandwagon views and not science. There are people who take prescription medications for all kinds of things (many don't need) such as ADHD or something (rather than natural solutions). There's really no evidence that long term high doses of these prescription medications are any less harmful than say marijuana. Constantly eating sugary processed foods could be more damaging than some recreational drugs too. We have to keep it in perspective.

I used to be extremely opposed to drugs, and still have never tried any recreational ones myself, but I've come to see that everything has a potential place to be used for good.

One possible good use of drugs, the ones that make you feel high, would be to notice for example the change in your breathing (CP increase) being related to feeling 'good'. Then, when the drugs wear off and are being expelled from the body you can notice how your CP drops and you feel horrible. Same thing with alcohol and intoxication/hangovers. There are of course other things besides breathing involved, but this is just one way someone could benefit in life by using recreational drugs (to find out for themselves that breathing retraining is worth it).

I would suggest only to try these if you are at rock bottom, with no way out, and no where to go, with the only alternative to be intense suffering or suicide. Then it makes sense. Otherwise, they are too dangerous in terms of being addicted and caught in a vicious cycle.
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by fictor »

Many people enjoy hallucinogens responsibly. I know of many more people that have done these drugs and did not go insane or hurt themselves than I do of people who got hurt. Most hallucinogens are not very toxic at all (in the amounts one usually take), and both personal anecdotes and research shows that they can create meaningfull and even spiritual experiences in people, and have a positive impact on their lives. To blow these experiences off because they are "chemically induced" is silly, in my opinion. In the end, all our expereinces are chemically induced :)
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by RRM »

fictor wrote:In the end, all our expereinces are chemically induced :)
Any experience may result in a shift in neurochemicals, but thats a chemical response,
rather than inducing the experience itself.
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by fictor »

RRM wrote:
fictor wrote:In the end, all our expereinces are chemically induced :)
Any experience may result in a shift in neurochemicals, but thats a chemical response,
rather than inducing the experience itself.
Even so, why would this make one type of experince more usefull or meaningfull than the other?
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by overkees »

Yes, you can't say it's a better tool if you haven't tried a tryptamine. You even have a tryptamine called DMT, that occurs naturally in our body. It has even been hypothesized that it can be built very fast in the pineal gland, because all necessary enzymes are available here, this could happen when there is so much stress that adrenaline penetrates the barrier of the pineal gland and this causes DMT to explode in quantity due to this. Of course this is only a hypothesis, but it could explain things like NDEs or OOBEs. And therefore inducing such an experience could be a very interesting thing to do. People who have such a NDE always come back without being afraid for what comes after this life. This effect can also be triggered by smoking DMT for instance. Tryptamines give an experience nothing in real life can even touch upon. And to state the normal life as better does not add anything, because nobody comparing is totally unnecessary. It are both, life and trips, magical and cool things. I'm not saying everybody must do psychedelics but if someone has an interest, because they have a good reason and normal life can't do it for them, I would surely do recommend them it.

In the amazon they have a ritual (for probably thousands of years) of drinking ayahuasca tea, which contains this compound DMT and some MAO inhibitor that causes a trip for several hours which is a very important thing in their culture. It are just 2 different kind of plants that are crushed and brewed as tea. Saying it is chemical always sounds dangerous and spooky, but everything is chemical and does not say anything in itself. Tryptamines look like melatonin in structure and can act on the same receptors like serotonin does. Drinking a coffee would also be chemically inducing and altering an experience.

You always hear stories like, it could drive you insane and bla, but I have never met someone who actually did. And I know alot of people whove actually had such an experience (+70 people), including myself. I always hear these stories from someone who always knows somebody who knows somebody that went mad. And even if you know somebody: that person would probably have a lot of issues, having a dose that is too big or not doing it in a calm setting or a combination of these.

I would really recommend drinking ayahuasca tea with a shaman if you really want to do it, you can do this in most countries legally. It is a trip that is totally not confusing and very sense enhancing. Mushrooms are more confusing than this substance.
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RRM
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by RRM »

fictor wrote:
RRM wrote:
fictor wrote:In the end, all our expereinces are chemically induced :)
Any experience may result in a shift in neurochemicals, but thats a chemical response,
rather than inducing the experience itself.
Even so, why would this make one type of experince more usefull or meaningfull than the other?
Well, i think that actual experiences help us with getting life experience,
which may make you more wise regarding the issues of life,
and that drug induced experiences help you with getting experience with drugs,
which may increase your knowledge about what drugs can do.
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by Mr. PC »

Why do children play? Why do we fantasize? Is there any long term benefit to that? If there is I imagine a similar benefit could be derived from chemicals (maybe not).

To study the long term health effects I think would be very involved.

Only 1 specific drug could be studied at a time (e.g.DMT), and the study would have to follow test subjects over a long period (maybe a decade). Change in their I.Q. personality and health would have to be compared with those of the control group.

I predict that people might be affected differently. Some may lose I.Q. points while others may not. Some may be enlightened by it while others may not. Like acne and HCAs. Of course, many people's minds/bodies will change naturally over the years, which is why the study would require a high number of subjects and a control group.

Do any such studies exist? Is there an easier way to research this than I proposed? I value my mind immensely, so I don't want to do anything that will have a long term impact on it.
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by dime »

In the end it's gambling with your life.
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Re: hallucinogens

Post by RRM »

Mr. PC wrote:Why do children play?
To learn and practise. By playing, we learn lots of stuff; how to work with others, how to compete with others,
to develop your skills (think fast, be flexible, be creative).
Why do we fantasize? Is there any long term benefit to that?
Yes, fantasizing is imagining stuff. What would i like to do? What would i like to be?
Any plans about your future start with fantasizing about it, so that it is essential in life.
a similar benefit could be derived from chemicals
Like what?
To study the long term health effects
There is no point to study the health effects of hallucinogens.
You dont need them for anything.

I think would be very involved.
I predict that people might be affected differently.
Of course, but what is the point??
Some may be enlightened by it
Enlightened?
By drugs?
How does that work?
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