state of nature

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nick
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Re: state of nature

Post by nick »

RRM wrote:Exactly, because many women also love it very much if the man (that they desire!!!) "takes them 'while they are helpless' / 'overpowered'.
Many women fantasize about getting 'raped' (by the man they desire!!!), which frees them from all 'responsibilities'; she gets both the pleasure and still be 'innocent'.
I'm not sure about how many women actually think this, but it would make some sort of sense that women would seek this power relationship. If men were the alpha-males, then the women would proportionally (to some degree) feel the same urge to be taken. There is a fine balance to strike and if the two people are sexually aware of themselves this could only help make everything for the better.
Maybe not always. Maybe its just a delicate dance of seduction and 'power'; its balancing on a thin line, because the man always needs to be 100% sure about the woman's desires (while she isnt always sure either!!) and therefore needs to be ulimately sensitive to her signals. What means what? An extremely difficult role-play, but also extremely intense and 'pure'.
Well said. And by knowing the truth of our instincts and why we are compelled to act certain ways, this understanding can only further the way we treat each other, hopefully for the best of both people. Know thyself!
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state of nature

Post by Marty »

Why would any woman feel this way; Why would a man find this loving; --

So many things I don't understand.


:D
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Re: state of nature

Post by RRM »

Marty wrote:Why would any woman feel this way; Why would a man find this loving; --
In sex you may distinct between passion and love.
Good sex involves both, but not necessarily in the same night/day.
Passion includes lust, physically and/or emotionally.
This lust is partly 'an animal thing'; it comes from our 'program'; biologically we need to have sex for the survival of our genes. And even though we may not want to make any (more) children right now, that 'biological need program' is there. And when we are physically and emotionally healthy, we will feel lust occasionally (given the right partner).
Biologically, it seems to be most effective if the woman can submit to the man, so that a woman's desire to 'get overpowered' is good for the 'survival of her genes'.

For a man, making love is not confined to being 'gentle and lovin'.
Maybe, making love is a shifting balance between passion and gentleness.
And yes, passionate sex can be very loving if the man is totally in tune with what the woman wants, which may include powerful passion.
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Re:

Post by Marty »

Ah, I do understand what you are saying.



Perhaps there has been, in reading this, a tautological problem with the wording ... forcefulness implying pain-- : the word rape setting off similar implications of something that by definition could never be something desired by the body. I see what you are saying, though.

I have been raped and it was fighting, more than anything else-- sheer frustration while having a clear sense of what needed to be done (find a weapon, since my body was physically smaller and I could not fight effectively without one, to stop this act from happening).... This by a person I had 'desired'-- up to but not including that point. There is nothing wrong with fighting, of course-- which also involves a biological imperative-- : So rape was more like this. It involved struggle, more than pain. It certainly did not have anything to do with passion.

I do not think that 'loving' equates with gentleness, either.... It is simply that the wording seemed to cancel out the argument that 'being overcome' by a man is something that could ever be desired when it implies force, and therefore either pain, or a neutral struggle.


These things become very 'backwards' in the mind when the common understanding of them is backwards, as well... Where 'submission' is conflated with what women do, and therefore becomes something to sneer at. When you are a woman, you almost always adopt this too, though it may go against your viewpoint. In the American culture, there is nearly unimaginable physical violence against women. "F*ck you" becomes a tremendous insult; many derogatory sayings are things that simply imply a male's (sneering) view of taking a woman's viewpoint, connoting (to him) powerlessness and a dead-end position in life.

As a woman, I have never used these expressions-- and much else that this culture offers-- with this in mind.

And in this way, too, these things deemed 'powerful' in men-- typical alpha male type status, attitudes; etc.-- all of the things that men use to accrue and broadcast power-- have seemed absolutely the opposite to me. The men I have found desirable; the man I find desirable know is 'powerful' in completely an opposite way.


That is why, in part, even reading and acknowledging, and agreeing with this part of your viewpoint, I am still leery of it. It involves using some words differently, and being able to see words like 'submit' and all its connotations in a truer way, without the baggage that they come with in what is an extremely male-centered culture.
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Not leery

Post by Marty »

So--

In agreement-- and you have put this across very well.....

But the words have a mesmerizing effect of almost cancelling themselves, due to a backwards effect of 'what women want' almost always implying a terrible 'what women DON'T want but are pushed into being and doing-- (and by this shall we know they are women).'

It is the same effect of seeing, in life, how the very things denigrated by so many are infinitely valuable. And when this happens you ignore a lot that goes on denigrating the very things that you know to be true; no matter what kind of unenviable position it puts you in. If you are a musician in a society that sneers at music-- well, at the heart of this, you find that music makes you feel so powerful; and is indeed so wonderful, that your definitions become inverted, and you do not relate to that message of society.

Many cultures do not allow women to be all that they are:

And one ignores this. You do not have to stay in that box.


Again, the usual trappings of male power and prestige- which I have tasted as a woman in a business career, which I then left--- are a compensation; a need to overcome a seeming lack. They seem to be the very definition of powerlessness, in a way. I see all of these things differently-- even opposite. "Submitting'-- as above, or in a spiritual sense-- is another example of something I now see differently. It does not pass muster in society, often--

But then you are a "Reformed Robot Man," yourself, so you already know this.
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Re:

Post by RRM »

Wow, your posts required some re-reading from my part...
Indeed, I find that wording can hardly be accurate when talking about stuff like this if I dont elaborate, so I understand that you are still leery. Probably its even impossible to eliminate that as we are talking about something so much subjective that also may be subject to extreme shifts within seconds.
I understand that date raping happens quite regularly in the US, doesnt it?
Maybe its because 'fine lines' and 'shifting perspectives' are not exactly at the heart of the viewpoint of the average american? (nor in politics, movies etc)
Maybe in America one is more trained to 'fight for what you want', and 'do whatever it takes' and 'never give up'? To me that seems a 'training ground' for date rapists.
In true passion the 'art of it' are those very thin lines and shifting feelings, and being able to feel and act upon them. Maybe the average american should learn more about the subjectiveness of appreciating art, music etc, and of course also about 'political' points of view. Maybe he should learn about finding arguments in support of any given point of view regarding whatever subject, and being able to explain / defend them, and then shift positions and do the same...
Maybe something like this would be a good way to prevent data rapes? Learning about subjectiveness and how to distinct between subtilities?

I find the sexual submission of a loving woman the proof of her courage, strength, self awareness and trust. Something that can only be utterly admired and desired as the precious gift that it is.
And indeed, 'powerful men' may not learn the most essential things in life a human being needs to learn, most likely depriving them from feeling inner peace and satisfaction. To me, true strentgh lies in thoroughly knowing your weaknesses and vulnerabilities, and learning to love them.
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Not leery

Post by Marty »

Yes-- I really do agree; it is just hard that many of the words one must use to talk about this are already very loaded, and indeed 'backwards.'


I find America an astonishing place of almost no subtlety in the most meaningful realms of life- especially in art and music-- aesthetics if you will-- to name just two.


I would not use my example to draw generalizations about this culture, as this happened with a non-American-- it was purely a forceful thing to do; a way to exert will; to continue an argument and to create an overall atmosphere of submission in other aspects of life, too-- and something the person has done apparently in other situations, especially in his country of origin. It bespeaks just an opportunism-- of 'I am bigger than you are, and might makes right.' It was meant to be rather a warning to me, in some way, which I was astonished to be the recipient of.

I really do agree with much of what you have said; the saying of it is so difficult. It is one of the (many) things in life that may hardly be put into words without creating immediate contradiction. There are 'lions' of music and art as well as corporations, are there not? Yet is seems ridiculous to call Beethoven an 'alpha male.' :D

Your words are really (and always) well taken. They are very helpful, and sensitively put.
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Re: state of nature

Post by benzapp »

RRM wrote: Exactly, because many women also love it very much if the man (that they desire!!!) "takes them 'while they are helpless' / 'overpowered'.
Many women fantasize about getting 'raped' (by the man they desire!!!), which frees them from all 'responsibilities'; she gets both the pleasure and still be 'innocent'.
Wow, you realize this would get you in serious trouble in an American University!
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Post by RRM »

Yes, I know, and I would never say this in the US, as sometimes there is very little room for nuances.
Of course, women dont fantasize about getting raped for real. And I never meant to say that.

When it comes to sex, maybe most of us sometimes fantasize about things we dont actually want to happen for real with all strings attached.
In a fantasy, you simply take away all the unwanted 'side-effects' / strings attached / unpleasant aspects. In fact, you can fantasize about having sex with someone and adjust whatever needs adjustment (different attitude, bigger breats, whatever) In a fantasy, we solely picture what we like / want, and leave out anything unpleasant. Thats also what I meant regarding the 'rape fantasy'

I wrote 'raped' and not raped because I was using it as a label for all levels of desired 'overwhelming' / 'overpowering'. In a rape fantasy, she only includes the level of 'getting overpowered' that she likes, and leaves out everything else.
A fantasy has nothing to do with reality, as every detail is on your terms.
So, a 'rape' fantasy has nothing to do with 'wanting to get raped' for real.
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culture

Post by Marty »

Yes, I do agree that the culture of the U.S. is very much low on nuance.

It is partially due to the speed of the culture... we absorb many messages about 'getting somewhere,' achieving and striving, and it seems that we are always searching for something we never find. And this, due to technology and a culture of accumulating and acquiring, can never be fast enough.

This destroys creativity, and makes every activity an exercise in 'end-gaining.'

It is also a culture in many ways without a classical sense of culture; of aesthetics; of learning. We come down heavily on acquired knowledge, rather than on nuanced, considered knowledge and wisdom from an open, and listening, mind.

I truly do understand the way you are using this word, and what you are saying. I also understand how, without quotation marks, many minds jam up upon hearing it. And the final not-beautiful thing about American culture is that things we find we do not like, we react violently to.... because we are not prepared to confront ourselves. We feel the world must adjust to us.

Living outside the U.S. for a long time made me feel this was true. It is of course very much a generalization. But the lack of nuance in our dealings with other people is something so striking that in truth, I cannot avoid seeing this, even if others do not agree.
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Post by Oscar »

Spot on Marty. :)
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culture

Post by Marty »

Perhaps many would disagree though, no?


It takes being outside a culture to really see it, however...

I have done at least that.


I believe the confusion about health here also stems from this 'fast speed.'

One variable among many is seized upon-- a nuanced, overall sensitivity to health and diet is pretty much crushed by this. First it is fat intake... then trans-fats.... Then a miracle supplement... then another. Each benefit is seized upon. Each drawback leads to recalls; bans; total avoidance; great controversy. It is an unbelievably tiring way to live, no?
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Post by Oscar »

Yes. Fast speed leads to shortsightedness and looking for fast solutions. And I guess also an unwillingness to put effort into improving the situation. This is seen not only in the US, but all over the world I think.
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Post by nick »

Patience is virtue.
Perhaps it fosters thinking and deep thought.
But it does help most of the time.
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