Wai Warrior - for autophagy - AN EXPERIMENT

Fasting during the morning and (some part of) the afternoon, eating at night
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Wai Warrior - for autophagy - AN EXPERIMENT

Postby RRM » Mon 20 May 2013 16:11

This is the reporting of an experiment.

Introduction
Autophagy is a survival response, using up old / redundant / damaged organelles ('cell-organs') for energy and building blocks.
As this cleans up cells, it prolongs their lifespan, and thus cell renewal is slowed down and ageing is slowed down, prolonging life.
One can evoke autophagy through exercise, protein restriction and calorie restriction.
See the WaiWiki: http://www.waiwiki.org/index.php/Autophagy

The Wai diet principally already is a protein-restricted diet.
Calorie restriction may be chronical or intermittent.
As chronic calorie restriction results in low body mass, intermittent fasting may be more acceptable.

Inspired by my (20 months old) daughter, who prefers to consume very little food/juice until right before going to sleep,
I decided (mid march) to give intermittent fasting a try.
My goal is to not lose any weight, and yet evoke as much autophagy as possible, which requires some experimentation, naturally.
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby RRM » Mon 20 May 2013 16:22

I started with reducing my energy intake during the day (before 18.00) with 50%, compensated for in the night.
Fred pointed out that this resembles the Warrior diet, hence the title.
Initially, i lost 2 kg bodyweight in the first week, but weeks later i had gained it back.
Funny enough, my overall energy intake has decreased 24%. (must be the autophagy effect)

After 1 week, i reduced my energy intake duyring the day with 60% (compared to before the intermittent fasting experiment).
After 2 weeks with 70%.
After 3 weeks with 80%, then 90% and then 100%, meaning no energy intake whatsoever during the day.

My weight is the same as before the experiment. Bodyfat went down from 9 to 7%.
My strength has increased, ranging from 5% (push-ups) to 20% (chin-ups).
My daily exercise: 1 big muscle group (either push-ups or chin-ups) plus 1 (of 4) more isolated group of muscles (side lifts, back lifts, triceps, biceps)
Am curious whether i can maintain this for a longer period of time. (no weightloss, 24% decreased energy intake)
If i succeed, i may try to lower protein intake. (currently 250 grams of fish / meat / yolks per day)

Taking in no energy is easy. Ingesting sufficient energy at night is more of a challenge, as there is little time (we go to bed at 20.00, getting up at 05.30),
I work out at 18.00 (big muscle group) and 19.00 (small muscle group), which is also easy, as fasting does not use up muscle-glycogen; the strength is still there after a day of fasting.
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby dime » Mon 20 May 2013 17:35

It's no problem to eat 2000kcal or so in less than an hour, and then go straight to sleep?
Can you write more about the diet (what else besides the 250g of fish/meat/yolks), and the sequence of eating?

Anyway I'm happy to hear this has worked well so far.
Not having to eat for most of the day would be very liberating, although eating so much at once sounds daunting. But without fiber it should be well doable.
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby Maia » Mon 20 May 2013 18:04

This is very interesting!
A bit beyond perceptions reach
I sometimes believe I see
that life is two locked boxes, each
containing the others key -Piet Hein
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby RRM » Mon 20 May 2013 18:17

dime wrote:It's no problem to eat 2000kcal or so in less than an hour, and then go straight to sleep?
I have 2 hours (between 18.00 and 20.00) for eating, drinking and exercise.
The sleeping is no problem, as my diet contains very little fiber.
A few times during the night my daughter wakes up for a drink, and then i may take a drink too (if i feel i need extra energy).

At 18.00 i exercise, immediately followed by lots of juice.
Mostly sieved OJ (with OO and sugar), but also a little banana juice.
Thats all. I dont feel like eating avocado or anything else; too much fiber.
I drink as much as feels comfortable for my stomach.
During the night i may take a little extra, if needed.
Not having to eat for most of the day would be very liberating
Indeed.
Naturally, I am a little less energetic of course, but nobody has noticed the difference.
eating so much at once sounds daunting. But without fiber it should be well doable.
Yes, only without fiber.
Drinking the sieved OJ is easy. I add as much banana juice as is doable.
If i had to eat whole fruits, it would be impossible (for me).
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby fred » Mon 20 May 2013 20:07

Very impressive results!

When do you eat your animal protein ?
How many calories do you take a day ?
No excess urinating during the night ?

"fasting does not use up muscle-glycogen" -> You mean your body burns fat during fasting ?
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby dime » Mon 20 May 2013 20:14

fred wrote: "fasting does not use up muscle-glycogen" -> You mean your body burns fat during fasting ?
No, I think a bit more accurate would be -- only muscle work, as in exercising, uses up muscle glycogen.
Siting around doesn't use up muscle glycogen, irrelevant of whether you've been eating or not.

Btw I've noticed the same -- strength increase, even when fasting for only 2-3 hours before going to the gym.
It's especially prominent when you need both strength and endurance, e.g. rowing for me.
Probably it's mostly related to having some extra energy that is otherwise used in digestion.
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby fred » Tue 21 May 2013 05:45

dime wrote:
fred wrote: "fasting does not use up muscle-glycogen" -> You mean your body burns fat during fasting ?
No, I think a bit more accurate would be -- only muscle work, as in exercising, uses up muscle glycogen.
Siting around doesn't use up muscle glycogen, irrelevant of whether you've been eating or not.
RRM sitting around all day? I though he was a waiter and had a very energy demanding job ?
(Not to mentioned taking care of his daughter)
Btw I've noticed the same -- strength increase, even when fasting for only 2-3 hours before going to the gym.
It's especially prominent when you need both strength and endurance, e.g. rowing for me.
Probably it's mostly related to having some extra energy that is otherwise used in digestion.
You need to have your glycogen store full I guess. So not first thing in the morning on a Wai diet?
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby Kasper » Tue 21 May 2013 07:15

How much OJ do you drink between 18:00 and 20:00.
I can't imagine that you really drink 3-4L of OJ in 2 hours.
Do you drink it like 1L a time ? Or more like 15 min. for half a litre ?
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby RRM » Tue 21 May 2013 08:44

fred wrote:When do you eat your animal protein ?
Right after exercise i bulk up on OJ (with sugar and a few drops of oil),
and once my stomach feel right for it (as soon as possible) i eat the salmon / beef / yolks.
The bulk (or everything) after exercise 1, and the remaining after exercise 2.
How many calories do you take a day ?
It depends on how hard i work, but if it is not so busy at work:
prior to Wai Warrior
4 L of OJ, 10 g. OO, 230 g. sugar, 250 g. salmon = 3397 kcal
and now
3 L of OJ, 7 g. OO, 150 g. sugar, 250 g. salmon = 2582 kcal (= 24% less)
No excess urinating during the night ?
Just once a night.
As my daughter wakes me up anyway, thats when i go to the bathroom.
"fasting does not use up muscle-glycogen" -> You mean your body burns fat during fasting ?
As Dime wrote, only muscle activity uses up muscle-glycogen,
and at work i dont really use the same muscles that i exercise at night.
I use the muscles in my legs, but they cannot use the glycogen stored in mys shoulders, biceps etc.
Yes, i use my arms, but not exactly the same muscles that i exercise particularly.
dime wrote: Btw I've noticed the same -- strength increase, even when fasting for only 2-3 hours before going to the gym.
It's especially prominent when you need both strength and endurance, e.g. rowing for me.
Probably it's mostly related to having some extra energy that is otherwise used in digestion.
Yes, i think so; it seems that about 30% of available energy is normally used for digestion.
I exercise prior to eating because i can perform better, compared to after eating.
fred wrote:
dime wrote: Probably it's mostly related to having some extra energy that is otherwise used in digestion.
You need to have your glycogen store full I guess. So not first thing in the morning on a Wai diet?
Yes, you need full muscle-glycogen stores.
I always make very sure to maximally replenish muscle-glycogen right after exercise (stimulates muscle growth).
For short, intense exercise, liver-glycogen is irrelevant.
During fasting liver-glycogen is converted into glucose, but not muscle-glycogen.
Yet i was surprised at how full muscle-glycogen (power to exercise) still is after a day of fasting.
Kasper wrote:How much OJ do you drink between 18:00 and 20:00.
About 2.6 to 2.9 L, plus 0.1 to 0.4 L during the night.
I can't imagine that you really drink 3-4L of OJ in 2 hours.
I used to drink 4 L / day.
I need less energy currently; just 3 L.
Drinking 3 L of OJ in 2 hours is no big deal, actually.
Thats because after a day of fasting plus right after 100 pull ups/push ups, my body is really craving for energy big time.
At that very moment i drink about 1 L in 2 minutes.
Its just that i also have to eat the salmon / beef / yolks, and i replace some of the OJ with banana juice, which makes it harder.
Do you drink it like 1L a time ? Or more like 15 min. for half a litre ?
After the first exercise (and a day of fasting), i drink 1 L in more or less one sitting.
After about 15 minutes i drink about 250 ml extra, and when my stomach feels good for it, i eat 150 to 250 g. salmon.
After that, when it feels right, i drink a little more (200 ml / sitting)
If there is still salmon remaining, i eat the rest after the second exercise.
Prior to that, i drink 200 to 400 ml of OJ after the second exercise (isolation exercise).
After all that i drink some more, in small quantities. (eg 100 ml)
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby dime » Tue 21 May 2013 11:38

Perhaps a nicer way to adapt to "Wai Warrior" could be to start eating one hour later each week, until you reach like 2-3 hours before sleep time.
So if you wake up at 6:00 and go to sleep at 22:00

- week 1 you don't eat until 10:00
- week 2 you don't eat until 11:00
- week 3 you don't eat until 12:00
...
- week 10 you don't eat until 19:00

At least it's simpler than counting calories :) At week 10 you can start decreasing calories, as long as you are still maintaining the same weight.
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby Kasper » Tue 21 May 2013 12:41

I need less energy currently; just 3 L.
Drinking 3 L of OJ in 2 hours is no big deal, actually.
Thats because after a day of fasting plus right after 100 pull ups/push ups, my body is really craving for energy big time.
At that very moment i drink about 1 L in 2 minutes.
Well let's say it like this. I can't even imagine drinking 1L of water in 2 min. :P

In the past you supported the idea of eating meals in very small quantities.
This is going very well for me at the moment, as this is the only way I can eat carbs (sugar) without digestive problems.
What is your idea about this now ? Wouldn't eating so much sugar in such a short time be able to give insulin issues ?
I think one of the most important aspects is to do things consistently, as (a healthy) human body seems very good in adapting to consistent regimes.
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby overkees » Tue 21 May 2013 13:46

I think it has to be one of the two. Either you eat small meals frequently, or you eat a big meal with a very long interval before the next one.

I find it very strange that you eat your protein so late. If I have a proteinous meal right before bed time my sleep will be much longer and I will always feel more tired in the morning. This probably has to do with the protein heavy breathing effect during sleep where you can't pay attention to breathing anyway.

I've done the intermittent fasting protocol a couple of times, and am planning on reintroducing it pretty soon again, with a couple of small sugary snacks (dates) in between trying to avoid overconsumption of fatty acids and only eat it when my body craves it. My plan differs from yours as I don't do heavy muscular exercise (only a couple of chinups every other day) so I won't need the protein after a workout. What feels best for me is having a proteinous meal (herring or eggs and home made kefir milk) for brunch at 9-10 (I wake up early on most days). Then at the end of the day, around 6-8 I will eat more carbs, just like you. That way my sleep is best. I think if you do this for a longer while your body will spare that protein and not use it for energy. The dates throughout the day will prevent my body from breaking down too much protein. Started this protocol again this day.

Man, I ate some grain products due to the fact there was a miscommunication and I had no other ways of getting enough fruits (was in the middle of nowhere). It felt terrible and reminded me I need to start paying more attention and get this right again, thanks for the motivation.
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy

Postby RRM » Tue 21 May 2013 17:37

dime wrote:Perhaps a nicer way to adapt to "Wai Warrior" could be to start eating one hour later each week
Yes, that may be a better / more practical guideline, indeed.
At least it's simpler than counting calories :)
Absolutely.
BTW, counting calories was just for reference; as im exploring this method, i thought it would be better to record the various variables.
But indeed, normally, one just has to make sure not to lose weight, regardless of calories.
At week 10 you can start decreasing calories, as long as you are still maintaining the same weight.
For me, that was just a result, and not a goal.
I actually was a bit surprised by the decrease in calorie intake; as i managed to maintain weight.
Maybe pushing down the intake of calories might evoke weightloss,
as your body should tell you when satisfied with energy.
I think listening to your body is key here, as this Wai Warrior version is extremely tricky.
Kasper wrote:Well let's say it like this. I can't even imagine drinking 1L of water in 2 min.
On the normal Wai diet, even half a L of OJ was already way too much for me.
(i think i even wrote that somewhere)
Its the fasting all day, followed by intense exercise that evokes this incredible energy-hunger,
which dominates all other responses (repulsion, feeling full), enabling you to simply 'open up your throat' and load it all in.
The same thing that keeps you from drinking too much on the normal Wai diet is that what makes you drink a lot on Wai Warrior after exercise,
which is listening to your body. The more you listen, the louder it sounds.
Its as if you have been swimming under water for 3 minutes and now finally reached the surface; there is no way you will breath-in modestly.
In the past you supported the idea of eating meals in very small quantities.
I still absolutely do.
Its the way to go to do this diet.
Wai Warrior is taking on a big challenge once you've mastered the Wai diet.
Doing Wai Warrior before having practised the regular Wai diet extensively, is asking for problems, i think.
This is going very well for me at the moment, as this is the only way I can eat carbs (sugar) without digestive problems.
Yes, the regular Wai diet is optimal for optimal digestion.
Wai Warrior is really pushing the limits regarding digestion.
If even i wouldnt sieve my OJ, i wouldnt be able to do it. Let alone eating any whole fruits.
What is your idea about this now ? Wouldn't eating so much sugar in such a short time be able to give insulin issues ?
When your spare energy stores are completely depleted, there is no rise in insulin secretion.
But the only way to be sure about that, is by depleting those energy stores completely first,
which you never can be sure of on the regular Wai diet.
I think one of the most important aspects is to do things consistently, as (a healthy) human body seems very good in adapting to consistent regimes.
I agree. Hence i apply a very strict scheme currently.
overkees wrote:I think it has to be one of the two. Either you eat small meals frequently, or you eat a big meal with a very long interval before the next one.
Yes, you cannot mix the 2.
Wai Warrior is fundamentally different from the regular Wai diet.
Wai regular is optimal and Wai Warrior is pushing the limits.
I find it very strange that you eat your protein so late.
Remember, Wai Warrior is for evoking autophagy, disregarding what is best for digestion.
If i consume protein before 18.00, i stop the autophagy.
If i consume protein prior to exercise, i make it harder to exercise properly, and further complicate digestion.
If I have a proteinous meal right before bed time my sleep will be much longer and I will always feel more tired in the morning.
So far i have no difficulty whatsoever with sleep, its perfect, but that would not be the case on Wai regular, probably.
Maybe its because the blood protein level is low during the day, and any repair is postponed, so that digested protein may get immediately utilized,
without elevating serum protein too much.
Again, i think this only works on Wai Warrior, and not at all on Wai regular.
thanks for the motivation.
:)
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Re: Wai Warrior - for autophagy - AN EXPERIMENT

Postby Kasper » Wed 22 May 2013 14:18

Another question.
Have you noticed any signs that this "grow younger" process is actually happening?
I don't really know which sort of signs this could be.
Maybe your skin looks younger, maybe old scars are healing, maybe better concentration etc. etc.

Is there anything that would make you conclude that Wai Warrior is definitely superior to Wai regular as it comes to autophagy?
There are a lot of theoretical reasons why it may be superior, but sometimes it works out different in practice.

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