Vitamin B1 & Orthomolecular medicin

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Oscar
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Vitamin B1 & Orthomolecular medicin

Post by Oscar »

This thread was split off from another thread

Okay Kasper, tell me: what are healthy vitamin B1 and B3 levels?
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Post by Kasper »

Okay Kasper, tell me: what are healthy vitamin B1 and B3 levels?
I don't know, I think that everything above the nutrient recommendations should be healthy because these vitamins are water soluble..
What do you think ?
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Post by RRM »

I think that everything above the nutrient recommendations should be healthy because these vitamins are water soluble
Always?
Also in the case of calcium? (dissolves in water)
Selenium?
Last edited by RRM on Wed 07 Jul 2010 09:30, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Kasper »

RRM wrote:Always?
Also in the case of calcium? (dissolves in water)
Selenium?
I meant with vitamin B1.
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Post by Oscar »

Kasper wrote:I don't know, I think that everything above the nutrient recommendations should be healthy because these vitamins are water soluble..
What do you think ?
That's where the problem is. You interpret the RDA as a rock-solid, scientifically proven, for everyone always applicable number. It isn't.
There are too many factors in play to just strictly hold to this one number.

Look at vitamin C. 6.5-10 mg/day is the minimum we need, yet the RDA says 60 mg/day.
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Re: Vitamin B1 / thiamine

Post by Kasper »

You haven't reacted to this article:
One hundred and twenty young adult females took either a placebo or 50 mg thiamine, each day for 2 months. Before and after taking the tablets, mood, memory and reaction times were monitored. An improvement in thiamine status was associated with reports of being more clearheaded, composed and energetic. The taking of thiamine had no influence on memory but reaction times were faster following supplementation. These influences took place in subjects whose thiamine status, according to the traditional criterion, was adequate.
This article argues that even the traditional criterion on vitamin B1 is low. While you all here are telling that the recommanded vitamin B1 intake is higher than you actually need.
I think it would be good to recommend people who post their diet here to include orange juice in their diet, because of its high content of vitamin B1 which is associated with being more clearheaded, composed and energetic.

Of course their are more minerals and vitamins, and I think you need to focus on every single one. But we cannot focus on all in one topic, can we ?
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Re: Vitamin B1 / thiamine

Post by Kasper »

The RDA of thiamin is in most countries is set at about 1.4 mg. According to them, this would be enough to prevent beriberi , but is it also enough to optimize biochemical function or to maximize a person's subjective well-being ?
Because your body is about balance, too much of one nutrient reduces the effectiveness of another.
Of course it's about balance, but what is the balance ?
For some vitamins it's known that it reduce the effectiveness of another. For some vitamins, like vitamin B1 it's isn't known at all.
There are no side effects of more vitamin B1 in the diet.

"After two months the students who took extra thiamine more than doubled their scores on the clear-headedness and mood subclasses of the bipolar Profile of Mood States (POMS) psychological test. Students treated with placebo showed no change. Those taking thiamine also increased their quickness on a reaction-time test. Again, the placebo group was unchanged. Finally, improvement also occurred on POMS subscales that measured if a participant felt confident, composed or elated. However, these latter results were not statistically significant."

It's about balance, but what is the balance?
You assume that nutritional shortfalls aren't relevant until they become severe enough to cause illness and adding more nutrients adds nothing to the body's chemistry or function.
I would reccomand people to add vitamin B1 rich fruit, such as orange juice, in their diet, not only to people which such an extreme diet that can cause beriberi, but also because several studies indicate that consuming more than 1.5 mg vitamin B1 is associated with being more clearheaded, composed and energetic, having a quicker reaction time and an increase in mood.
This results suggest that adding more vitamin B1 to the diet optimzes biochemical function.
I think the right balance is not less but more than 1.5 mg thiamin a day.
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Re: Vitamin B1 / thiamine

Post by RRM »

For some vitamins it's known that it reduce the effectiveness of another. For some vitamins, like vitamin B1 it's isn't known at all.
But that does not mean its not there.
Our blood is a limited pool of nutrients that needs to be in balance.
Its all about percentages. If the percentage of some nutrient(s) is increased,
that of others will decrease automatically.
You assume that nutritional shortfalls aren't relevant until they become severe enough to cause illness and adding more nutrients adds nothing to the body's chemistry or function.
A lack of a specific nutrient will always get noticed.
Initially, you will feel less energetic, sleep less well, feel less good etc etc.
If you dont lack B1, adding B1 will not improve your all over balance.
I would reccomand people to add vitamin B1 rich fruit, such as orange juice, in their diet
I have shown you that even when you eat kiwis, bananas and egg yolks only,
you still ingest all the B1 that you need, so that you certainly dont need extra B1.
Your recommendation is therefore without ground.
several studies indicate that consuming more than 1.5 mg vitamin B1 is associated with being more clearheaded, composed and energetic, having a quicker reaction time and an increase in mood.
That is not based on the Wai diet, but a normal diet, right?
If you do this diet right, all those effects mentioned are already there.
I would definitely not want to feel more energetic etc than i already feel now...
(i guess that would overpower my 'inner peace')
Again, its all about balance.
Kasper wrote: The RDA of thiamin is in most countries is set at about 1.4 mg. According to them, this would be enough to prevent beriberi , but is it also enough to optimize biochemical function or to maximize a person's subjective well-being ?
Optimizing biochemical function will result in maximizing a person's subjective well-being, yes.
This diet does exactly that.
If you think we need more B1 to feel better, why not more B2, B3 etc etc?
So, why not more of everything?
Why not more sugars as well?
Increasing sugar intake also makes you feel more energetic, no?
More is not always better....
I think the right balance is not less but more than 1.5 mg thiamin a day.
Of course we gladly want you to question the rationale behind this diet.
And of course everybody is entitled to have deviating opinions.
But if you want to promote a deviating opinion of your own, please do that in this forum.
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Re: Vitamin B1 / thiamine

Post by Kasper »

Of course we gladly want you to question the rationale behind this diet.
And of course everybody is entitled to have deviating opinions.
But if you want to promote a deviating opinion of your own, please do that in this forum.
Okay, you can move/split this topic to that forum than.
Or do you want me to open a new one ?
But that does not mean its not there.
Our blood is a limited pool of nutrients that needs to be in balance.
Its all about percentages. If the percentage of some nutrient(s) is increased,
that of others will decrease automatically.
Okay, so,
If the percentage of vitamin C is increased, than the percentage of other nutrient(s) will decrease automatically, right ?
So if we increase vitamin B1 our pool isn't in balance anymore,
but if we increase vitamin C in about 235 (4500ml Orange juice=2354 mcg, minimum we need = 10 mcg) times more than we need our pool is perfectly in balance.. ?
I don't get it.
A lack of a specific nutrient will always get noticed.
Initially, you will feel less energetic, sleep less well, feel less good etc etc.
If you dont lack B1, adding B1 will not improve your all over balance.
I agree.
Well the subjects in this study [1] improved their all over balance.
So according to you they lacked vitamin B1, right ?

But in that study [1] the thiamine status of the subjects was adequate according to the traditional criterion.
So, shouldn't the traditional criterion be too low than ?
That is not based on the Wai diet, but a normal diet, right?
If you do this diet right, all those effects mentioned are already there.
I would definitely not want to feel more energetic etc than i already feel now...
(i guess that would overpower my 'inner peace')
Again, its all about balance.
Well, I calculated that your diet is around 5 mg of vitamin B1 a day, which is relative to other diets, extremely high.
That study [1] only tells we need more than 1.5 mg a day to optimize biochemical function and to maximize a person's subjective well-being, it doesn't tell how much more.
It might be 2 mg or 5 mg, but it could also be 50 mg.

You talk about your own experience.
But how can you be sure that a person with a diet of 13 banana, 6 kiwi, 100 gram oil, 6 egg yolks have the same experience.
If all the persons you have seen on this diet experienced those positive effects,
it could be that all those persons consumed more than 1.5 mg of vitamin B1 a day.

When I was on a banana/kiwi/coconut oil/fish/egg yolk diet (2400 kcal a day).
I was also smoking marihuana every day, and sleeping very bad because of ringing in my ears (tinnitus).
So I wasn't energetic at all, but I can't say this was because of vitamin B1 as you will understand.
Optimizing biochemical function will result in maximizing a person's subjective well-being, yes.
This diet does exactly that.
If you think we need more B1 to feel better, why not more B2, B3 etc etc?
So, why not more of everything?
Why not more sugars as well?
Increasing sugar intake also makes you feel more energetic, no?
More is not always better....
More is not always better, but this study [1] suggests that more than the traditional criterion is better.
I haven't read any studies suggesting we need more than the recommended B2, B3..

1. Benton D. Thiamine supplementation improves mood and cognitive functioning. Psychopharmacology 1997;129:66-71.
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Re: Vitamin B1 / thiamine

Post by RRM »

Okay, so,
If the percentage of vitamin C is increased, than the percentage of other nutrient(s) will decrease automatically, right ?
So if we increase vitamin B1 our pool isn't in balance anymore,
but if we increase vitamin C in about 235 (4500ml Orange juice=2354 mcg, minimum we need = 10 mcg) times more than we need our pool is perfectly in balance.. ?
I don't get it.
You dont get it because you left the uptake ratio out of the equation.
As the human body is adapted to seasonal changes in the availability of specific fruits,
it can effectively decrease / increase the vitamin C uptake ratio.
A lack of a specific nutrient will always get noticed.
Initially, you will feel less energetic, sleep less well, feel less good etc etc.
If you dont lack B1, adding B1 will not improve your all over balance.
I agree.
Well the subjects in this study [1] improved their all over balance.
So according to you they lacked vitamin B1, right ?

But in that study [1] the thiamine status of the subjects was adequate according to the traditional criterion.
So, shouldn't the traditional criterion be too low than ?
I didnt suggest they initially lacked B1.
There is no proof at all that the all over balance has been improved by the supplement.
Increasing sugar intake may also make you feel more energetic etc.
But it may not improve your all over balance.
According to the traditional criterion, you don't need extra B1 in this example diet.
According to that study [1], you will improve biochemical function when adding some more B1.
No, not at all.
Effects were noted, but these effects are not proof of 'improved biochemical function'.
I calculated that your diet is around 5 mg of vitamin B1 a day, which is relative to other diets, extremely high.
Its also extremely high in sugar, which requires a lot of B1.
If all the persons you have seen on this diet experienced those positive effects,
it could be that all those persons consumed more than 1.5 mg of vitamin B1 a day.
Could be.
this study [1] suggests that more than the traditional criterion is better.
I haven't read any studies suggesting we need more than the recommended B2, B3..
There is a whole 'science' dedicated to high intakes of vitamins; 'orthomolecular medicine'.
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Re: Vitamin B1 & Orthomolecular medicin

Post by panacea »

What is your profession and background, like where did you accumulate the health/science knowledge you have.
Im a waiter in a restaurant, full time since 24 years.
I just read a lot of studies and books about biochemistry and biology.
I'm still kind of confused who exactly did the research on the Wai sites as well.
Good, as to me its not important who said what.
I like it that the info is constantly questioned as well as extended by others.
I believe that all info should always be questioned.
Was Wai Genriiu (sorry for spelling incorrectly) the main researcher, or an inspirational figure, or what.
Perfect spelling. Wai Genriiu is the drawing; the non-existing founder of this diet.
Thanks sorry for my ignorance :)
No ignorance at all.
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Re: Vitamin B1 & Orthomolecular medicin

Post by panacea »

haha no wonder I didn't realize you replied ;) hehe
thanks for the info,
I also believe it doesn't matter who said what, I was just curious so that I could 'talk' to that/those person/people that did the research.

And aren't you from Amsterdam? What's the typical diet for the locals there? Is it a lot like the U.S. (if you've been here and know what I mean, it's sad). Or maybe that's just Oscar in Amsterdam and you're from the U.S. >.<
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Re: Vitamin B1 & Orthomolecular medicin

Post by Oscar »

Wow panacea, you replied yourself! ;)
Amsterdam is the town, also for the (in)famous mr RRM ;)
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