ketogenic diet

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RRM
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:ketone bodies are used in autophagy?
Yes, in autophagy, all kinds of nutrients are used for energy, including ketones.
That is because autophagy evokes the breakdown of damaged organelles into energy.
Organelles (the organs of cells) contain all kinds of molecules, including protein, glycogens, nucleotides and ketone bodies.
Aytundra wrote:ketone bodies are used in ketogenic diets?
Yes, ketone bodies are derived from all fat-like substances, including from fatty acids in bodyfat and dietary fat.
The word Ketogenic is so similar to ketones.
That is because ketogenic bodies are ketones.
A ketogenic diet is about using relatively much ketone bodies for energy.
Is Panacea mistaking ketogenic as ketone gets used up, and thinks it is the same ketone used up in autophagy?
No, he knows that a ketogenic diet is only ketogenic if the use of ketone bodies for energy is dominant over the use of glucogenic bodies for energy.
Whether ketone bodies are used up in autophagy or are derived from dietary fat / bodyfat makes is irrelevant for whether a state is ketogenic, as long as the use of ketones is dominant (over the use of glucogenic bodies).
I suspect that panacea also knows that autophagy is not about the utilisation of ketones derived from bodyfat and dietary fat.
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Aytundra »

RRM wrote: Diabetes is not cured by minimizing insulin spikes.
In diabetes the insulin response is out of wack.
This requires a reset.
You cannot reset this system by evoking little insulin release.
You may compare it to fine-tuning an instrument. For fine-tuning / resetting, you need a reference point.
"little insulin" is not a valid reference point.
"0" is a valid reference point.
Of course, the release of insulin is never 0, as it is also used to control the level of ketone bodies, for example.
But no insulin-triggering molecules entering the bloodstream from the intestines is the best "0" that you can get.
So, fasting definitely wins "the lowest overall insulin activity race".

Then you will say: "but after fasting comes bulking up, which huge insulin spikes".
Sure, but all that insulin released is justified.
Therefore it does not undo the 'reset influence' evoked by fasting.
What does?
That what causes insulin resistence: continuing to ingest energy when the glycogen depots are fully repleted.
That is when insulin cannot facilitate the storage of excess glucogenic bodies into glycogen.
The glucogenic bodies therefore remain in the bloodstream and keep triggering the release of insulin, which keeps failing to facilitate the storage of energy, which keeps triggering the release of insulin.
This is a short circuit.
This is what causes insulin resistence.
Not insulin spikes.
Not high sugar meals.
Insulin spikes do not hinder the reset of the insulin system if justified, and only fasting may reset the insulin system.
Low insulin spikes (above "0") do not cut it.
<<{Sorry I need analogy to understand. I think Golf Game is good analogy for Insulin problem. :roll: }>>

Excess-Golf-Players-on-the-Turf is not caused by minimizing Golf-Players spikes.
In Excess-Golf-Players-on-the-Turf the Golf-Players response is out of wack.
This requires the Turf to be cleared.
You cannot reset this system by evoking a few Golf-Players.
A few Golf Players on a Turf is not a valid
...
...
...
That is when golf players cannot facilitate the storage of excess golfballs into pits.
The golf balls therefore remain on the lawn and keep triggering the release of human golf players which keeps failing to facilitate the storage of golf balls, which keeps triggering the release of more golf players.
This is a too much golf players on the lawn.
This is what causes grass to be trampled to muddy dirt.
Not golf-player spikes.
Not high number of golf balls on the lawn. {Edit = lol, originally typed:"Not high golf ball meals" haha :roll: }
Golf-player spikes do not hinder the reset of the Turf/lawn if justified by enough pits, and only clearing the lawn, and letting grass to grow, and grass to be fertilized watered and trimmed, may reset the turf/lawn so that you have a pretty green grassy Golf Course.
Low numbers of human golf players on the lawn (above "0") do not cut it. Grass needs time to reset and grow.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Aytundra »

Most people are born with a Green Grassy Golf Course.
Some people are born without a Green Grassy Golf Course.
Green Grassy Golf Course, attracts golf players to play golf.
Those people born Without a Green Grassy Golf Course needs Tour Buses to import Golf Players to help them play a game of Golf.
Those people that have a Green Grassy Golf Course Turf but have golf players continuously trampling on the grass, destroys the grass and end up with no Green Grassy Golf Course, then Golf Players are not attracted to visit that Golf Course anymore, hence, Tour Buses of Golf Players will be needed to play a game of Golf.

Tour Buses = Insulin medication

A smart Golf Course Company, will open the Golf Course for a limited time, as well as know how much golf balls to release onto their grounds so that the grounds will not be overwhelmed by Golf Players over time and space.
A tundra where will we be without trees? Thannnks!
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Novidez »

RRM, a very brief question: Why is the ketogenic diet something that you would never try? (answering something like "Since I feel great, why should I change?" is not allowed ahah :P )

But seriously, I would like to know your honest opinion why it doesn't interest you, scientifically and also about the benefits vs cons.

For example, on a Keto Diet we increase the production of Beta-hydroxybutyrate which increases Brain-derived neurotrophic factor production, which is also important for learning and memory; and neurogenesis. However, Dr Mark Mattson said also an interesting thing
"17:44: Fasting can elevate ketones to high levels—even those higher than are typically induced on a ketogenic diet."
From http://www.ihmc.us/stemtalk/episode007/ ... ign=buffer
Also
Autophagy is also achievable through intermittent fasting just as easily as longer fasts. Autophagy begins when liver glycogen is depleted, around 12-16 hours into a fast. The rate of autophagy peaks there, and then drops after about 2 days. If your goal is a “spring cleaning” for your cells, intermittent fasting may be even more effective, since you spend more time in the “early fasting” period when autophagy is at its peak.
From http://paleoleap.com/long-fasts/ (although I don't know whether this source is reliable or not.)
And someone (who I think you don't like him that much xD) says: https://youtu.be/S8o8GvyGRYc

Are those, for example, your reasons to not be interested in it? Or are there more?
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

@RRM
Actually ketosis / ketogenic diets do evoke autophagy. Just not the type of autophagy associated with low-protein autophagy. However, with a low protein ketogenic diet, which all correct ketogenic diets are because when keto-adapted, your body naturally requires less protein, even low-protein associated autophagy is evoked for much of the time, although not around the times you eat protein.
A ketogenic diet keeps a body in a fasting state more than any other diet (between meals), therefore evoking more autophagy-due-to-fasting than any other diet, besides actually fasting.

"low-carb" diets aren't necessarily ketogenic diets, they have no relevance to ketogenic diets. it's easy to eat a low-carb diet and never enter scientifically accepted levels of ketosis, like a nutritional ketogenic diet allows you to do. eating as little as ~50 carbs a day can be "low-carb" and never allow you to enter nutritional ketosis.

you may gain or lose weight on a ketogenic diet, but it is far more effective at stabilizing you to a normal weight (such as gain weight if underweight, lose weight if overweight) than a high carb, low carb, or any other type of diet. Even fasting is worse for losing weight in the long term when you consider the willpower it takes to keep with it, and not bulk up on weight again after you get your ability to feast back.

you seem to have your own definition of "starvation mode", sorry, there's no accepted definition, starvation literally means suffering or death caused by hunger, which can happen while both on a (bad) diet or fasting. many people use the phrase 'starvation mode' to just mean a caloric deficit of 10% in their diet to lose weight gradually, it's a phrase, not a word. when the body is nutritionally stressed, it will start to use body fat stores as well as autophagy to get energy from the cells for survival. this happens in fasting and in ketogenic diets. it happens more so in fasting, but it also happens in ketogenic diets much more so than non-ketogenic diets. in the long run, fasting and replenishing periods combined, compared to only ketogenic diet periods, probably even out on the amount of autophagy that is evoked, even if the specific areas and types of autophagy were a little different. there is nothing to suggest that the fasting method is healthier, better, etc. in any way.

fasting is not sustainable very long term, but a fasting/replenishing rollercoaster is. newsflash, that is exactly what a ketogenic diet is except there is less time between the fasting/replenishing period (a matter of hours or a day or so), similar to other diets, except a ketogenic diet keeps the body in the fasting-adapted state of using fat for fuel (keto adapted), lowered protein waste, increased antioxidant production and lower free radical production, and increased neuro- and cyto- protection, to name a few profound fasting-like adaptations. Ketogenic diets allow you to stay in this semi-fasting, protective, recylic, autophagic, and glucose-starving (close to what mid-length fasting is) mode indefinitely. Of course, the body solves the glucose starvation by switching fuels in many areas, but the lack of glucose requirements is still lowered, just like in fasting.

The differences between healthy-length fasting and nutritional ketosis are very mild, mostly having to do with a nutritional ketogenic diet is profoundly better for your well-being. What happens when someone fasts for so long that they endanger their health, I don't know about those effects and the autophagy response and other bodily effects may indeed be much more profound (and harmful).

Diabetes is best cured at the current time, since we don't really have much technological means of a cure, by solving the root cause of diabetes, which a ketogenic diet does, indefinitely, and fasting does only temporarily. Whatever words you want to use to describe that to fit your fancy, is up to you. If fasting for a doable length of time actually cured diabetes, then there would be more people raving about it like they rave about how long-term ketogenic diets (even the cooked inferior kind) reduce their medications and/or cure their diabetes entirely.

Fasting has the lowest level of insulin activity, but fasting can't go on forever. Over the period of 6 months, a year, two years, five years, 10 years, a lifetime, ketogenic diets win the "lowest overall insulin activity race" because they don't have replenishing periods. You also say those replenishing periods are justified, for diabetics, when no one really knows what is better, and for non-diabetics, even though it's necessary to regain normal weight, that does not necessarily mean it's "justified", or "superior to not getting in an underweight or malnourished state in the first place", like you could do with a ketogenic diet..
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

An article by a ketogenic diet expert 3 years ago, pasted here since it's relevant to longevity (not that I really care about that aspect of it).

Ketogenic (very low carb) diet increases longevity
by Jeff S. Volek, Ph.D., R.D.
Ketones are important metabolites produced by the liver that increase when carbohydrates are limited in the diet. Thus, very low-carbohydrate diets are often called ketogenic diets because they result in a significant increase in blood levels of ketones. Ketones serve as an alternative fuel when glucose (derived from carbohydrate in the diet) is scarce. Even the brain, which normally depends on a steady supply of glucose, can use ketones for fuel.

Since ketones are simply derived from fatty acids stored in fat cells, accelerated ketone production indicates that fat stores are being mobilized (burned for energy). Thus, being in ketosis is a favorable metabolic state to be in for people wanting to lose body fat. But new research has cast a whole new light on ketones extending their role beyond simply an auxiliary fuel source.

A water-shed paper recently published in ‘Science’ reported that the primary circulating ketone (ß-hydroxybutyrate or BOHB) is a potent regulator of a group of genes that protect cells from oxidative stress.

Two subsequent studies showed that ketones are longevity metabolites. One study showed that elevated ketone levels extended life span by 26% in worms, and the other showed that ketones corrected the metabolic defects in a mouse model of accelerated aging.

For humans to produce ketones, you would need to reduce your carb intake to about 50 grams per day or less, not including fiber carbs. This exciting new perspective on ketones as both a fuel source and cell signaling molecule might open the door to exciting new therapeutic discoveries related to a ketogenic diet.

Reference:
Science. 2013 Jan 11;339(6116):211-4
Aging (Albany NY). 2014 Aug;6(8):621-44.
Cell Metab. 2014 Nov 4;20(5):840-55.


<EDIT by RRM> All links added by RRM </EDIT by RRM>
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

@Aytundra
I really don't have a clue what you're talking about half of the time, sorry if I missed any questions
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Re: ketogenic diet

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To understand each other, we first need to get the terminology right.
panacea wrote:starvation mode ... which can happen while both on a (bad) diet ...
No, that is malnutrition
Starvation is a very specific type of malnutrition:
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation
"Starvation is a severe deficiency in caloric energy intake needed to maintain human life"
Starvation mode is therefore a mode in which much less energy is consumed than needed. (input minus expenditure is negative)
Given that this is the accepted definition of starvation, do you think that one may gain weight when in starvation mode 24/7?
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Novidez »

Medically, high levels of ketone bodies (with low and stable levels of insulin and blood glucose) are associated with acetone breath.
Not something i want to be associated with.
Yeah, I read about that. But isn't that true only when you are on ketoacidosis or even a benign ketosis makes you have that breath? Also, I think on a ketogenic diet you have to drink lots of water, like 4L or more, because electrolytes are excreted through your urine quickly and a person has to constantly replenish them. It is said that you can easily develop kidneys stones if you are not cautious enough.
How much water are you drinking daily panacea? Do you feel more thirsty?


P.S.: Btw, I met two sisters in my high school and they had a family with diabetic genetically problems. So, one was diabetic and the other (the older one) was not but it was constantly drinking water (lots and lots of water). I actually had something with the older one and, I must say, she had always a weird breath (now I can't say if it was like acetone breath...). Well I'm telling this because the curious thing is that both of them were really smart and genius in terms of learning and memory. Seriously, since I had relationship with one of them, both literally didn't study at all and always had remarkable grades.
Ok, this may sound truly ridiculous and naive, but since the primary circulating ketone is ß-hydroxybutyrate and it is a important for learning and memory, could it be that diabetic persons or people that have genetically predisposition to diabetes have that ketone circulating more in their brain and make them smarter? Has anyone met any diabetic person? Was he/she genious? ;D

(I know that science doesn't work like this and I must apologize for this amateur question, but I was really thinking about this yesterday. Since I couldn't find any study relating diabetic people with IQ or something like that, I had to share this idea with you :roll: ).
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Re: ketogenic diet

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panacea wrote:A water-shed paper recently published in ‘Science’ reported that the primary circulating ketone (ß-hydroxybutyrate or BOHB) is a potent regulator of a group of genes that protect cells from oxidative stress.
In the science article, the ketones came from fasting and subcutanous administrarion.
Two subsequent studies showed that ketones are longevity metabolites. One study showed that elevated ketone levels extended life span by 26% in worms, and the other showed that ketones corrected the metabolic defects in a mouse model of accelerated aging.

In the Cell. Metab. article, the high fat diet "rescues neurological and metabolic phenotypes of a mouse model of the accelerated aging disorder Cockayne Syndrome".
In the Aging article, the nematodes were supplemented with beta-hydroxybuteric acid.

Several TCA metabolites have a similar effect (fumarate, malate, oxaloacetate, alpha-ketoglutarate)

In the latter article, it also says that the increased metabolism of beta-hydroxybuteric acid (βHB) may increase TCA cycle (increasing the level of specific TCA cycle intermediates, which may inhibit autophagy), using the same pathway as the effects of fasting; mimicing dietary restriction, and that SKN-1 signaling may decrease mitochondrial biogenesis.
The lifespan extension is driven only partly by βHB metabolism.
Because βHB is a mimetic of the effects of fasting, it may be equally subject to negative feedback.

In mammals, βHB administration or a ketogenic diet (by blocking the insulin signaling pathway in muscle) may lead to insulin resistance.http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/299/3/E364.longYamada et al[/url]
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

@RRM

Malnutrition:
lack of proper nutrition, caused by not having enough to eat, not eating enough of the right things, or being unable to use the food that one does eat.

Image

Given that the definition of starvation is actually not fasting, or not inputting any energy at all, but is merely putting in severely less energy than you need for a lengthy period, many diets, as well as fasting, can result in a constant loss of weight, it's not something that is isolated only to fasting. Fasting isn't even the most drastic way to deplete energy stores, as you can eat things which are diuretic, or actually cost more energy to deal with than they give (such as eating a ton of fibrous raw vegetables very low in nutrition, and not much else, roots and tubers that haven't been cooked, etc). Similarly, you can be in "starvation" while on a ketogenic diet, if you simply eat much less energy than you need, and allow your body to use autophagy and body fat to sustain most of its energy, similar to how it does during fasting, but not to the same intensity.


@Novidez
No I'm not drinking a lot of water, and acetone breath typically smells fruity on a ketogenic diet, and it's a misnomer that ketogenic diets give you acetone breath long term. Ketone levels balance out on a ketogenic diet, they aren't flooding the body as the body eventually adapts and learns approximately how many it needs to make at a given time. Similarly I would drink a lot less water, and so would everyone on a ketogenic diet, if the diet was raw wai keto, since raw foods contain higher percentages of water, so you don't have to "drink" as much because you eat less dry food.

My urination trips and volume is even less on a ketogenic diet. A ketogenic diet helps remove water retention in the initial stages, even while on a cooked ketogenic diet, which only a raw wai high carb diet can compare to. A raw wai ketogenic diet diet (very low carb) would probably remove even more water retention than high carb wai. You need to supplement with sea salt in the initial stages of a ketogenic diet only, because you do lose a lot of water/electrolytes, which causes headaches (the initial keto adaption period referred to as the keto flu, when done improperly). By the way this is identical to fasting, you need to replenish a lot of water and electrolytes there as well. Fasting is merely achieving the same effect a ketogenic diet has at a greater speed, and in my view, at the cost of a detriment to mental and physical performance, moods, energy levels, etc. where that is not necessary to reap the benefits, if you go the ketogenic route.

@RRM

Ketones can come from fasting or a ketogenic diet, the population at large is not on a ketogenic diet, and it takes longer to induce true ketosis on a ketogenic diet than fasting, so of course people on a deadline, who want to experiment and test things in labs, are going to use fasting to get into ketosis faster and monitor the results. Also, compound to this, that not much is known about ketogenic diets, but fasting is understood worldwide, so it's a more tested and studied thing. It's an established fact that ketones are produced on a ketogenic diet, similarly to how they are when fasting. Whether the experiment was monitoring the benefits of ketone activity by fasting, or a ketogenic diet, makes no difference. Fasting would make the effects more pronounced, but over the long term the effects would balance out via the replenishing period. Fasting is therefore a great way to monitor the effects of ketosis, but not the only way to achieve those effects.

Is there a point to your last comment about the two subsequent studies?
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by RRM »

panacea wrote:Given that the definition of starvation is ... merely putting in severely less energy than you need
Thank you.
Thus, you cannot be in a starvation mode 24/7 without losing weight.
Right?
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

Correct, you also cannot be in starvation mode 24/7 without dying eventually.
At some number of 24/7's (number of days), you have to exit starvation mode, whether that be exiting it from a ketogenic diet, fasting, another diet, exercising less, etc. Even if you start doing it "24/7" again afterwards, by only looking at the time periods where you're doing it, and not the time periods where you're not, you trick yourself and others into thinking you are in a starvation "mode" that is different than a ketogenic diet, when that actually happens all the time on a ketogenic diet in between meals, when you start amping up your use of autophagy and body fat for energy, it's impossible to gain weight during that time, even between meals. Since you typically eat another meal before you notice any weight loss, no one really talks about that. The only difference fasting has is that it's a longer time period between meals, and the weight loss is more noticable but still the same speed, the autophagy is more intense in the fasting period but not in the replenishing period, and a lot of other terrible effects are also more pronounced, which is why most can't fast for long periods and maintain their daily lives, but they can keto for long periods and maintain their daily lives.
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by Novidez »

panacea wrote:and a lot of other terrible effects are also more pronounced, which is why most can't fast for long periods and maintain their daily lives, but they can keto for long periods and maintain their daily lives.
Hmm, is it too much asking you to do some Pros vs Cons for both of them? (only if you have patience for it, of course! :) )
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Re: ketogenic diet

Post by panacea »

I basically already did in a previous post I think on this very thread
But the main difference is that fasting at length makes you feel tired and weak from little energy, but compacts a lot of autophagy/keto activity in
and a ketogenic diet wai diet makes you feel focused and steady energy, with relatively less autophagy/keto activity, but it's still happining
and a high carb wai diet makes you feel good/not so good depending on how long since last meal with greatly varied energy levels throughout the day unless you constantly eat/sip food, with much less keto activity (almost none) and I'm not sure how much autophagy, possible negligible amount or none

of course, a very healthy body can adapt to a high carb wai diet, and have steady energy levels throughout the day. the same is true even for fasting, a very healthy person can fast for much longer than other people (say, 48 hours) without getting very weak or tired at all, but this level of health is very uncommon/hard to maintain, and that's getting into Buteyko stuff. the reason that is possible is because they are so healthy, they can switch from high carb diets to keto-adapted very quickly with almost no bad side effects, where most of us have to go through a process.

it was noticed a long time ago in buteyko students that had a very high CP all day/night, they could thrive on only consuming "almost nails", which was just a saying meaning no matter what lack of nutrients they seemed to eat, they seemed to feel great/fine. Of course what was really happening is that they were using body fat stores for energy very well by keto adapting very quickly and recycling glucose, etc. all those other adaptations that normally take longer, such as 3 weeks, happening very quickly because the body is more efficient.
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