Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

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Kasper
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Kasper »

Of which 2 grams of Omega-6 and 2 grams of Omega-3 are you talking about?
Are you talking about the undifferentiated-Omega-6? and undifferentiated-Omega-3?
Image

I think the body is mostly interested in EPA, DPA, AA and DGLA. But I believe if you provide omega-3 and omega-6 in equal ratio and mostly from animal sources (eggs, fish, meat, etc), your body will be able to make those omega-3 and omega-6 end products in the right ratios. LA for example, will be converted to AA and DGLA
Yes, I think the inflammation response is the likely factor that people die from, not the virus itself.
But, I have not really decided if PUFA plays a real role in that inflammation response.
This is a generally accepted theory. AA (an omega-6 fatty acids) gets converted to inflammatory prostaglandins. The way over-the-counter and prescription NSAIDs (ibuprofen, aspirin, Celebres, etc.) work is by reducing the formation of inflammatory compounds derived from AA.

Here is an article about this: http://chriskresser.com/how-too-much-om ... g-us-sick/
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

RRM wrote:
Aytundra wrote:Is that the LNA you are referring to, "18:2 (n-6)" ?
Im sorry, i should have been more specific.
18:2 (N-6) is linoleic acid (LA).
LNA may be the abbreviation of the linolenic acids; alpha (18:3 N-3), gamma (18:3 N-6), or both (18:3 undifferentiated)
I was specifically referring to α-Linolenic acid (LNA {(18:3 N-3) + (18:3 N-6)} / ALNA {18:3 N-3}).
Total fat in seeds such as flaxseed and chia seeds consists of more than 50% ALNA {18:3 N-3} / LNA {(18:3 N-3) + (18:3 N-6)}, which is too much.
Added purple bracket text for clarity in that quote.

@RRM in light of the chart Kasper posted, alpha linolenic acid (18:3 N-3), after many steps (if it is lucky to go through all of them) can become EPA and DHA.
The Omega-6 side of that chart, leads to production of "inflammatory" products as Kasper described.
Why should the ratio of alpha linolenic acid (18:3 N-3) be kept in 50% : 50% ratio with gamma linolenic acid (18:3 N-6)?
Is not the gamma linolenic acid (18:3 N-6) one step closer to Omega-6 end-products?
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Aytundra
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

RRM wrote:Total fat in seeds such as flaxseed and chia seeds consists of more than 50% ALNA {18:3 N-3} / LNA {(18:3 N-3) + (18:3 N-6)}, which is too much.
Ok, so ALNA has to be 50% or less of LNA, in your opinion, or else that would be too much in a food item.
What about this?
Source: Nutrition Data: USDA SR-21 Retrieved from: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fru ... ces/1843/2
Avocados, raw, all commercial varieties
100g food
18:03 125 mg
18:3 n-3, c,c,c 111 mg
18:3 n-6, c,c,c 15.0 mg

Source: Nutrition Data: USDA SR-21 Retrieved from: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fin ... cts/4258/2
Fish, salmon , Atlantic, farmed, raw
100g food
18:03 167 mg
18:3 n-3, c,c,c 148 mg
18:3 n-6, c,c,c 20.0 mg
Is the ALNA (18:3 n-3) too much in avocado and salmon?
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Aytundra
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

MuPuSaOmega3,6 Ratio Salmon Egg Butter Creme CiqualFrenchFoodCompTableVersion2013 coloured by Aytundra.JPG
A) Data was retrieved from: https://pro.anses.fr/TableCIQUAL/index.htm
Anses Table Ciqual 2013 Composition nutritionnelle des aliments French Food Composition Table 2013.
(I chose that food table because it listed confidence letter for each average value on the data that they obtained.)
B) I retyped the data from their website, grams of each fat is displayed along with the confidence letter assigned for the data.

1) Mono Unsaturated Fatty Acid : Poly Unsaturated Fatty Acid : Saturated Fatty Acid, in percent format, ratio.
- SFA over 33% = green
- MUFA over 33% = green


2) 18:2(n-6) : 18:3 (n-3), in percent format, ratio displayed.
{Green highlights loosely based on Kasper's rule 50:50 Omega 6: Omega 3}
- 18:3 (n-3) over 40% = green
- 18:2 (n-6) under 60% = green


3) Ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3.
{Trying to get as close to displaying an Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio with limited data, based on Kasper's rule.}
- Purple values includes Omega 6 and 3 of 18:## and 20:## (i.e. AA, EPA DHA)
- Omega 6 is less than 1, or almost 1:1 with Omega 3 = green
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Aytundra
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Re: Egg Yolk! Raw Cooked French Food Table 2013

Post by Aytundra »

It is interesting to note that the French Food Composition Table 2013 actually displays data for "raw egg yolk" and "cooked egg yolk", with 100 grams of each food item, the fat volume is about the same 31 grams and 30.1 grams respectively, however the cholesterol is 1140 gram and 612 gram respectively.

Did cholesterol get lost somewhere in the cooking process? :wink:
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RRM
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:
RRM wrote:Total fat in seeds such as flaxseed and chia seeds consists of more than 50% ALNA {18:3 N-3} / LNA {(18:3 N-3) + (18:3 N-6)}, which is too much.
Ok, so ALNA has to be 50% or less of LNA, in your opinion, or else that would be too much in a food item.
No.
In flaxseed and chia seeds, more than 50% of total fat consist of ALNA or LNA.
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Re: Egg Yolk! Raw Cooked French Food Table 2013

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:Did cholesterol get lost somewhere in the cooking process? :wink:
Yes.
You can see a similar (but more dramatic) effect regarding methionine in the original raw versus the fried versions.
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

It is:
"ALNA grams/fat grams" of a food item,
and
"LNA grams/fat grams" of a food item,
not
Alpha-LNA gram/undifferentiated-LNA gram?

---
Sorry, typo = "not grams" milligrams cholesterol. but the fact still holds that there is a difference in milligrams by about 400 mg.
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by RRM »

Are you saying that i cannot use the "/" as a "or" sign?
So, when a girls claims she is a "waitress / actress", she is actually referring to how much she is acting as a waitress in her acting roles?
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

RRM wrote:You can see a similar (but more dramatic) effect regarding methionine in the original raw versus the fried versions."
Interesting, i will try to find it.
In flaxseed and chia seeds, more than 50% of total fat consist of ALNA or LNA.
The Anses Cinqual French Food Composition Table 2013 does not list flax or chia seeds, neither does it list proteins in amino acids.
I may have to try the USDA SR-28 database.


Currently I have access to 2 direct sources for free:
1) French Food Composition Table 2013
2) USDA SR-28

Indirectly by:
3) Nutrition Data USDA SR-21
4) Textbook with Items of selection for Canada, using US data, USDA SR-16.
5) Wai World, limited to fruits, nut, oils, fish, sugar; USDA version? & Souci et al.

In jealousy and hidden out of reach:
6) Souci et al.. {I am actually amazed that there are detailed food tables out there, and for existence for such a long time.}

Other than that I don't know any other food composition tables.
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

RRM wrote:Are you saying that i cannot use the "/" as a "or" sign?
So, when a girls claims she is a "waitress / actress", she is actually referring to how much she is acting as a waitress in her acting roles?
I don't know what you are talking about.

I am trying to understand fatty acids.
"/" sign was used as a divide sign. Sorry if I used it incorrectly. I don't have the fancy " '/. " divide sign on my keyboard.
{I know "/" is also used to mean "or" in common writings. I am using "/" in a math context.}

1)

ALNA grams
_____________
Total Fat grams


vs.

2)

ALNA grams [18:3 (n-3)]
___________________________________________________
Undifferentiated LNA grams [18:3 undifferentiated]


Originally, for the past 2 weeks in May, I was thinking "2)" ALNA should not be more than 50% of undif-LNA.


----------------------------
I am struggling to read ALNA, and LNA acronyms, still getting use to them, I only learned that there was alpha linolenic acid and gamma linolenic acid and undifferentiated linoleic acid like 2 weeks ago from posting here.
Prior to that my knowledge of fatty acids had been very weak.
It is like algebra to me.
I am scared of all those COS, SIN, TAN, Cotangent... oat=opposite, adjacent, tangent, secant, ...etc.
I get mixed up very easily.
It is like learning a new language.
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:I don't know what you are talking about.
Im sorry, i misread your answer.
I read it as if you were dismissing my use of the "/" sign.
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

Aytundra wrote: @RRM in light of the chart Kasper posted, alpha linolenic acid (18:3 N-3), after many steps (if it is lucky to go through all of them) can become EPA and DHA.
The Omega-6 side of that chart, leads to production of "inflammatory" products as Kasper described.
Why should the ratio of alpha linolenic acid (18:3 N-3) be kept in 50% : 50% ratio with gamma linolenic acid (18:3 N-6)?
Is not the gamma linolenic acid (18:3 N-6) one step closer to Omega-6 end-products?
Answer this question.
Maybe this will help you understand my perspective.
It might be a wrong perspective.
If it is incorrect, please explain how I should make a ratio with alpha-linolenic-acid-(18:3 N-3).
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by RRM »

Aytundra wrote:Why should the ratio of alpha linolenic acid (18:3 N-3) be kept in 50% : 50% ratio with gamma linolenic acid (18:3 N-6)?
I never said that.
Is not the gamma linolenic acid (18:3 N-6) one step closer to Omega-6 end-products?
Omega-6 end products are valuable tools.
They are not at all "bad".
please explain how I should make a ratio with alpha-linolenic-acid-(18:3 N-3).
I dont think one should be too rigid about it.
If you just consume natural foods (and no flaxseed oil etc), those ratios will be fine in the sense that your body can perfectly deal with them.
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Re: Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Post by Aytundra »

Yes, I think I am having a reading problem here then.
A misunderstanding of what I am reading because of this symbol "/".
Going back to that original quote that piqued all my thinking:
RRM wrote:
Aytundra wrote:Is that the LNA you are referring to, "18:2 (n-6)" ?
Im sorry, i should have been more specific.
18:2 (N-6) is linoleic acid (LA).
LNA may be the abbreviation of the linolenic acids; alpha (18:3 N-3), gamma (18:3 N-6), or both (18:3 undifferentiated)
I was specifically referring to α-Linolenic acid (LNA / ALNA).
Total fat in seeds such as flaxseed and chia seeds consists of more than 50% ALNA / LNA, which is too much.
a) True OR False | 18:2 (N-6) = linoleic acid (LA).
b) True OR False | 18:3 (N-3) = alpha linolenic acid (ALNA)
c) True OR False | 18:3 (N-6) = gamma linolenic acid (GLNA)
d) True OR False | 18:3 (N-3) AND-OR 18:3 (N-6) = 18:3 = 18:03 [Nutrition data website] = 18:3 undifferentiated [USDA SR-28] = undifferentiated linolenic acid (LNA) containing unspecified amounts of alpha linolenic acid (ALNA) and gamma linolenic acid (GLNA).

RRM wrote:I was specifically referring to α-Linolenic acid (LNA / ALNA).
Is that "/" a "OR" sign or a "divide" sign?

To make matters more complicated I could have read:
ALNA multiplied by open brackets LNA divided by ALNA closed brackets.
I ignored that sentence 2 weeks ago because I did not understand it.

I looked at the next sentence:
RRM wrote:Total fat in seeds such as flaxseed and chia seeds consists of more than 50% ALNA / LNA, which is too much.
Flaxseed and chia seeds consist of more than 50% ALNA over LNA.
Flaxseed and chia seeds consist of more than 50% ALNA over TotalALNA+GLA

I became curious, I wikipedia searched GLA, I read that GLA reduces inflammation, GLA from evening primerose oil reduces pain. I remember my mom taking GLA a long time ago. That is interesting. I am thinking ALNA is bad, GLA is good, at that point in my wikipedia search.
Then I searched salmon and avocado, hmm the ratios in those foods are that ALNA is higher than GLA. Is the ALNA the bad PUFA, as there are good PUFA like EPA, DHA?

Then, Kasper posted the chart on Omega 3 and 6.
That chart is interesting GLA converts to DGLA and then makes those anti-inflammatory molecules.
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