Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Thu 14 Apr 2016 19:50

Post by **Kasper** » Fri 15 Apr 2016 17:22

Okay, this is how I see PUFA. You have two groups, omega-3 and omega-6. And as far as I know, they only thing they are really essential for is for producing prostaglandins. Maybe RRM knows more about this, but I don't know any other function.

Ray Peat says, if you would not eat PUFA, your body will produce mead acid, and use that for prostaglandins, so, you can avoid all PUFAs without problems. I doubt this, at least there is not much studies done about this. And besides that, in a normal diet, you will always eat them anyway, even Ray Peat himself eat so much PUFA I think, that he will not be deficient, and not produce mead acid. Anyway, you would not to eat extremely low PUFA for years, like 4 years or something. I think that in practice this doensn't happen.

So then, giving that we probably are not getting PUFA deficient, in the way that we produce mead acid, there is one other important aspect, and that is the ratio of omega-3 and omega-6. I think that is very important, most people have too much omega-6, because of plant based oils like, sunflower oil, but also avocado and olive oil have too much omega-6.

So you need to avoid this or balance this with omega-3. Most animal food, except chicken and pork I believe have a good ratio of omega-3 and omega-6.

However, I think you better avoid plant based oils, and just use animal food for fats. Why? Because you don't need much omega-3 and omega-6 at all. You only need a good balance, and animal food provide that. And because besides this one function that omega-3 and omega-6 provide, I think they are inferior to other fats in every single way. They oxidize fast, I think they play a role in AGE formation, I think Ray Peat showed some studies about that they are involved in aging of mitochrondia. Also some say that with too much PUFA, you will produce too much prostaglandins, which could give you an not healthy inflammatory response. I think we are better of limiting them.

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Fri 15 Apr 2016 18:35

"[Looks around frantically] {Where is the acorn nut?} [sniffs the air] "- Scrat-Ice-Age-Movie-Squirrel-Rat {lol, I just remembered that squirrel movie.}

"Protect tree nuuuuuuuuuuts!" - Squirrel-Aytundra

---
Getting there, posting nuts and oil PUFA up next. Stay tuned! - Aytundra

Meanwhile readers, please enjoy this tune, inspired by Kasper:

Kasper wrote: However, I think...I think...I think...I think...I think...of limiting them.

lol, Sing with me Kasper, you are on a roll with the wishful Thinking!

[Breaks into a musical:]
~ To the tune of Snow White's Wishing well.~
I am thinking (I am thinking)
for the ideas I thought
To find me, (to find me)
The Truth (The Truth)
I am hoping, I am hoping
the ideas are true.
And I'm thinking (I'm thinking)
Omegas (Omegas)
a little are good (are good)

Ah hahahaha (Ah hahahaha)
Ah hahahaha (Ah hahahaha)
Ah hahahaha (Ah hahahaha)
Ah hahahahahahaha

what day, what Daaay?
will it be
to look at the data hard core?
Sometime in the future, sometime in the fall,
sometime in the future, I shall look at the data and determine all.
~End Music~

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Fri 15 Apr 2016 23:24

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Sat 16 Apr 2016 03:16

I listed the food categories of Fruit, Fish, Eggs, Nuts & Oils in the previous posts; Those five categories were selected for the categories that Wai dieters would choose their food from, and including the cooked foods (which are banned items on a Wai diet) as a comparison value.

Here I list the Ray Peat, categories of food items, also with some fast food for comparison.

"Let, not the belief, in statements from diet gurus, sway your ability to analyze data. With data everything becomes fair game."- Aytundra
"May you wrestle your words against data, Ray Peat!" - Aytundra

Kasper wrote: even Ray Peat himself eat so much PUFA I think,

haha, I don't think he can escape PUFA either, unless he eats only sugar.

Post by **Kasper** » Sat 16 Apr 2016 13:06

I absolutely fail to see your point... You think we can eat omega 6 rich food without problems?

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Sat 16 Apr 2016 15:04

Kasper wrote:Okay, this is how I see PUFA. You have two groups, omega-3 and omega-6.

I don't understand, what 2 groups?
Like dividing food groups of Meat Group from the Grains Vegetable, Meats & Dairy Schema, and then saying there is dark meat (meat with bones(chicken wings, thighs, and drumsticks)) and white meat (meat without bones (chicken breast)) at a FastFood Chicken Store? Isn't that pointless?

I don't know what Omega-3 or Omega-6 are.
{I think biology class tried to teach me that and I failed their quiz and screwed up my GradePointAverage(GPA),~~~~~ Quiz = Omega 6 is bad True or False? I answered false. {shit it depends on the context like how much Omega 6 was provided for consumption, 1 microgram or 1 gram?; and was the Omega 6 cooked? } ; I think Oscar tried teaching me in another thread that by counting carbon chains at the end of a fatty acid, I can then classify the molecule as an Omega 6 or Omega 3. That was nice of him to try and teach me, but I forgot how many carbons to count backwards on the fatty acids.

}
Anyways I am not interested in differentiating them.
The textbook I borrowed from the library does not differentiate them too. So who cares. {secretly I hate the textbook, i think it should be more specific, like to tell me exactly what molecules of PUFA, saturated fats, monounsaturated fats whether the lengths are 18 carbons, 16 carbons or like the 17 carbons of margarine. See what I mean, that textbook is aloof. It also did not include Vitamin K data, darn I really really really want to get a Souci Textbook. It is like my wishlist for a Birthday Gift. Maybe European Textbooks are more dedicated in collecting data.}

I don't know if there are only truly 2 categories Omega-3 and Omega-6.
I don't know if it is trivial to divide it that way.
You know, Ray Peat just hates PUFA, and believes any mention of "essential", like "essential fatty acids" are inventions of food industry to increase profit {at least that is the gist i got from reading derivatives of his writing on forums and from that page he wrote himself.}.
So toss all PUFA into the garbage. But Ray Peat has a problem, his food items do contain PUFA like eggs.Ha. Ray Peat is hypocrite! or Ray Peat needs to work on making a food farm to grow genetically modified crops that reduce PUFA to zero.
Unlike Wai Genriiu who said no heated foods, s/he means no heated foods, and it is possible in the food list.

Look there are so many specific molecular categories under PUFA, this one is for egg yolk from nutrition data:
I think it is better to talk about chain lengths.
I think carbon chain lengths of 17 like in margarine is bad.
I think short chains in coconut foods are not optimal for some cell usage.
But those are just my opinion.

Read More http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/113/2#ixzz45znpl4uO wrote:Polyunsaturated Fat10.2g
16:2 undifferentiated~
18:2 undifferentiated8597mg
18:2 n-6 c,c~
18:2 c,t~
18:2 t,c~
18:2 t,t~
18:2 i~
18:2 t not further defined~
18:03250mg
18:3 n-3, c,c,c~
18:3 n-6, c,c,c~
18:4 undifferentiated0.0mg
20:2 n-6 c,c~
20:3 undifferentiated~
20:3 n-3~
20:3 n-6~
20:4 undifferentiated1064mg
20:4 n-3~
20:4 n-6~
20:5 n-326.7mg
22:02~
22:5 n-30.0mg
22:6 n-3277mg
Total trans fatty acids~
Total trans-monoenoic fatty acids~
Total trans-polyenoic fatty acids~
Total Omega-3 fatty acids554mg
Total Omega-6 fatty acids8597mg

Kasper wrote:I absolutely fail to see your point... You think we can eat omega 6 rich food without problems?

I never said omega 6 rich food are good or bad.
I never promoted eating omega 6.
My stance on omega 6 is currently neutral.

About Omega 6 volume, Stephan Cunnane a researcher believes that there is an error for the current suggestions of Omega 6, he believes the current recommendations on intake is 5 to 15 times the amount it is suppose to be( Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-6_fatty_acid ).
I can agree with Mr. Cunnane, because by simply looking at food tables PUFA for fastfoods are higher than meats cooked without all the sauce, breading, frying and dressing.

------------------------------------------
Sorry, i don't usually like being harsh on individuals, i am just angry at Ray Peat for making me get stuck in thinking. I have been pondering on the dangers of PUFA for like a month. I am wrestling with these questions A) {done!}, B), C), D) :

A) Is it possible to eat 0 PUFA from foods? Answer = There are PUFA in foods, even for Ray Peat items except for his sugar food item.
B) Is the SFA, MUFA, and PUFA dis-propotioned in foods? Ray Peat says we only need SFA and MUFA, he encourages SFA intake mostly. Use Textbook data and compare the SFA vs MUFA vs PUFA. Answer = ?
C) Is the Omega 6 and Omega 3 dis-proportioned in foods? Kasper thinks that Omega 6 rich foods are bad. Ray Peat will be saying Kasper is splitting hair, just avoid PUFA all together, all Omega 6 an 3 are not necesary. Use Nutrition Data's data, as textbook does not provide anything.
Answer = ?
D) Is PUFA raw okay? Wai Diet theory allows nuts and avocado. My original question was: Is it okay to eat avocados? Why does Ray Peat hate it so much. Are Wai Dieters in trouble eating Avocado?

Post by **Kasper** » Sat 16 Apr 2016 17:04

A Ray Peat says to limit PUFA, but not at all cost, egg yolks are extremely nutrient rich
B I don't understand the question, but yes SFA mostly like coconut oil, butter
C No, only in plant based fatty food like avocado, canola oil, sunflower oil
D I think it is not ideal. But trouble? No. You will survive.

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Sat 16 Apr 2016 18:34

A) PUFA is in all foods,
Except for water, alcohol, artificial-powder/drink/mix beverages, apple cider, honey, fruit butter (jam) apple flavoured, sour cream fat free, most plain syrup, sauce teriyaki, sauce worcestershire, pudding flan dry mix, lemon juice, flavoring vanilla extract, ice popsicle, most sugar, gelatin, vinegar vinegar cider, and yeast extract spread. {after looking at USDA food table in that Nutrition;function text book, maybe I should dump this list to the Ray Peat forum.

}

B) Coconut oil, I am still not sure on that oil. I think the various carbon lengths are a troublesome thought.

I don't believe in Ray Peat's stance on Saturated Fats.
I don't think he (Ray Peat) understands why he should promote saturated fats.
On top of the fact that he (Ray Peat) allows cooking of fats...{omg Maillard et al.}.
I think of saturated fats as a covariable.
The real variable is cholesterol.
I think that Saturated Fats are correlated with cholesterol in foods.
Eating foods high in saturated fats also means eating more cholesterol typically.
I can see butter being okay, when accompanied with cholesterol intake.
But I cannot see coconut oil's role.
I think coconut oil solo, may be dangerous.

C) PUFA is also banned in animal foods by Ray Peat i.e. salmon.

Technically I believe that avocado is justified for the PUFA, as the fruit also contains high Riboflavin and Niacin simultaneously, which is difficult to see in other fruits lacking the PUFA content.

In chicken food items, the PUFA is high, but Niacin is also high.

I am not sure if RayPeat should blame PUFA as bad, maybe PUFA is just a covariable. I think PUFA is a covariable to something or someothermolecule bad.

D) Avoiding avocado and salmon in the Wai Diet, makes getting nutrients more difficult and limited.
2-4 L OJ + 5 -15 egg yolk is one recipe, but that is difficult economically, time wise, and boredom/taste wise.

Post by **Kasper** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 22:25

A) PUFA is in all foods,

You are missing the point. It is not about eating no PUFA. That would mean eating no fat, which is not healthy in anyway.

It is about making sure your fat intake contains relatively little PUFA. Btw, the problems with PUFA are not an invention of Ray Peat. Saying they are not essential, that is an invention of Ray Peat. But many many health writes have written about problems with PUFA, and why you don't want to eat too much of it.

So the whole point of this discussion is not eating no PUFA. It is about how much is too much. I think Ray Peat says that eating less than 4 gram of PUFA a day. Which is pretty little, but you can eat eggs, salmon and avocado and still eat less than 4 gram of PUFA a day.

C) PUFA is also banned in animal foods by Ray Peat i.e. salmon.

Banned? Haha, did he really say that? 150 gram of wild sockeye salmon only contains 2 gram of PUFA. I think it is healthy, especially because it is low in omega-6. And therefore componsenates with high omega-6 food such as olive oil/coconut oil/avocado/eggs.

Avoiding avocado and salmon in the Wai Diet, makes getting nutrients more difficult and limited.

I won't avoid wild salmon, but which nutrients? I think the combination of enough fruit and enough animal food, is covering pretty much all nutrients.

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 22:34

[quote="Ray Peat's article on "Fats and degeneration" http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml "]About ten years ago I met a young man with a degenerative brain disease, and was interested in the fact that he (working on a fishing boat) had been eating almost a pound of salmon per day for several years. There is now enough information regarding the neurotoxic effects of fish oil to justify avoidance of the fatty fish."[/quote]
Ray Peat's anecdotal story of him meeting a man suffering from a brain disease, claims that, that man ate a pound of salmon every day.

I think, maybe that man also ate other foods or had other problems (genetic?, environmental?) that caused the brain disease and it might not have been from the fish intake? OR, maybe Ray Peat really had a real story?

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 22:46

Ray Peat's article on Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic? http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturatedfats.shtml wrote:
When the tissues are saturated with those antithyroid fats, metabolism slows, especially when any stress, such as cold or hunger, increases the concentration of free fatty acids in the blood stream. Stress and hypothyroidism increase the formation of serotonin, which is an important factor in producing the torpor of hibernation, and lowering the body temperature. The polyunsaturated fatty acids themselves directly contribute to the formation of serotonin, for example by increasing the ability of tryptophan to enter the brain. In a certain cold climate, the PUFA are essential for hibernation, but under other conditions, the rodent would be able to continue gathering food and eating, instead of hibernating.

The direct effects of the PUFA on the endocrine and nervous systems, as illustrated by the hibernating squirrel, interact with their effects on intercellular communication (including the formation of prostaglandins and related substances), and the effects of their oxidative breakdown products, such as acrolein. But the people who claim that they are absolutely, rather than conditionally, essential, base their argument on the idea that they are needed for the formation of prostaglandins and cell membranes. The fact that cells can replicate in fat free conditions shows that the argument from membranes is unfounded. The argument from prostaglandins is more complex, but has no firmer foundation.

I think Ray Peat firmly believes that polyunsaturated fats are not needed at all.

Post by **Kasper** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 22:58

In theory Ray Peat think they are not necessary. I said that in my post......

In practice, that would mean eating no fat at all. Because every fat has PUFA.

Of course we need to at fat and fatty food. So in practice it is about making sure to eat fatty food relatively low in PUFA and he advises total PUFA less than 4 gram.

Aytundra · Post by **Aytundra** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 23:00

Ray Peat http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml wrote:
Carbon dioxide is the driving force in the salt gland. The constant formation of CO2, and its loss into the air, allows a high concentration of salt to be excreted. Blocking the interchange of CO2 and carbonic acid, with acetazolamide, or inhibiting the formation of CO2, prevents the excretion of salt.

Since respiratory metabolism, governed by the thyroid hormone, is our main source of carbon dioxide, it's obvious that thyroid deficiency should impair our ability to regulate water and solutes, such as salt. An organism that illustrates this function of thyroid is the young salmon, when it leaves a freshwater river to begin its life in the ocean. As it converts its physiology to tolerate the salty environment, its thyroid hormone surges. When it's mature, and returns to the fresh water to spawn, its prolactin rises sharply. In experiments with rodents, it has been found that drinking a large amount of water increases their prolactin, but the same amount of water, with added salt, doesn't.

Hypothyroidism is typically associated with increased prolactin secretion. Hypothyroid people typically retain water, while losing salt, so the hypothyroid state is analogous to the salmon that has returned to the river, and to the mice that drink too much salt-free water.

For Buteyko followers and CO2 enthusiast, this quote might be for you.

Also this quote also might be of interest to those interested in "salt" intake.

The quote might explain why salmon compared to other fish has those PUFA properties...{maybe?}.

Post by **Kasper** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 23:07

Aytundra wrote:[quote="Ray Peat's article on "Fats and degeneration" http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml "]About ten years ago I met a young man with a degenerative brain disease, and was interested in the fact that he (working on a fishing boat) had been eating almost a pound of salmon per day for several years. There is now enough information regarding the neurotoxic effects of fish oil to justify avoidance of the fatty fish."

Ray Peat's anecdotal story of him meeting a man suffering from a brain disease, claims that, that man ate a pound of salmon every day.

I think, maybe that man also ate other foods or had other problems (genetic?, environmental?) that caused the brain disease and it might not have been from the fish intake? OR, maybe Ray Peat really had a real story?[/quote]

Giiiiiiirl, don't you see my point? Of course Ray Peat thinks eating a pound of farmed salmon is not healthy. That is 22 gram of PUFA..... Let alone the other shit in farmed salmon. I was talking about wild sockeye salmon in normal portions. That only contains 2 gram of PUFA.

And yes, I firmly believe as well that 22 gram of PUFA is waaaay too much. There are many studies done on the problems of too much omega-3 from fish oil.

Ray Peat..Haidut..Ede...etc

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