Breast Feeding

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HJG
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Breast Feeding

Post by HJG »

Oh my god! I have just been looking on the internet for tips about bottle feeding and came across your site "why formula should be banned". i have never read such awful scaremongering nonsense. My son was born unable to breastfeed due to severe tongue tie. I expressed milk for the first month but beyond that it was physically impossible to do every 3 hours and look after a growing baby at the same time so I started him on formula. He is very happy and healthy - in fact he has had NO illness at all in 4 months (all his breastfed pals have been ill at least once). He is not overweight and our paediatrician says he's an extremely strong healthy young boy. Of course breastfeeding is best but sometimes it is just not possible and sites such as yours do nothing to support mothers at such a stressful time. As for your idea to give my baby another mothers breastmilk...don't be so ridiculous. Give mothers a break and be realistic, it's just not always possible.
johndela1
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Post by johndela1 »

why would it be ridiculous to give your child milk from another human?

Do you also think it is ridiculous to give yourself and family milk from another mammal? (cow) I assume from what you have posted that you don't use any dairy products.

It just seems funny to me how people are shocked when it comes to somem things but accept even more shocking things. For example, I asked someone what they would think about a company that sold human milk. They told me it was a disgusting idea, as they finshed their glass of milk.
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Post by dadasarah »

HJG, That's wonderful that you were able to use a pump for the first month! You are very blessed to have such a healthy child. I hope your child continues to thrive. I don't believe Wai was deliberately trying to scare anyone. She did a lot of research and decided to share it. I see you agree that breastfeeding is best, but how much better than formula? We need to look at the results of countless reputable scientific studies and see how big of a chance we are taking with our child's health. Yes, it depends on the child and his level of sensitivity. If you are willing to live with those odds, go ahead. It's always been your choice. Wai's opinion is that formula is never advisable, because she is very passionate about doing the best ALWAYS for our health and our children's health, however uncomfortable it may be.
"Dada is the sun. Dada is the egg. Dada is the Police of the Police." - Richard Huelsenbeck
HJG

Breast Feeding

Post by HJG »

Ref John Dela1
It's ridiculous to consider giving milk from another human simply because who on earth would do it?!! You may live in some bizarre hippy eutopia but where i come from it would be extemely strange for me to ask my antenatal class friends to share their breastmilk! And what consequences for my child? Feeding (bottle or breast) is an important bonding time. I think my baby is far better off having a relaxed unstressed mother who has accepted she is unable to continue breastfeeding rather than a guilt ridden & stressed one. If i had continued to express after my husband had returned to work it would have meant leaving baby to scream while i pumped for 30 mins every 3 hours. Is that not more detrimental to my child? I think you should all get off your high horses & consider that many people you know (& quite possibly yourselves) were raised on bottles & I'm sure you're all doing just fine.
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Oscar
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Post by Oscar »

Considering the 'tone' of your posts, your baby doesn't seem to be having the relaxed and unstressed mother you are talking about.

I think the article tries to convey the notion that given a choice, you should breastfeed your baby. That is also what you seem to agree upon. In the same way one could argue it's better to walk on two legs instead of one, even if that would be impossible for someone with only one leg.

It also gives possible solutions for when you cannot breastfeed your baby. If you can't/won't do that, and/or don't agree with the article in the first place, then just ignore it.

So if you're perfectly happy with formula milk, then what's the point of having this discussion?
HJG

Breast Feeding

Post by HJG »

Oscar, The point of the discussion is that I wanted to make a point that some mothers reading this article, who feel desperately guilty about not being able to feed, may feel a little bullied by it. I am a very chilled out mother, thanks for your concern, but others less confident in their choices may not be helped by this article. In fact a friend of mine who had a baby at roughly the same time as me did not produce any milk has been suffering from severe post natal depression because she has had to use formula from the beginning.
The article certainly, to me, does not seem to be saying "given a choice".
I thought forums were about discussions & varying opinions. Apologies if having one of my own has offended you.
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Post by Cairidh »

It's great your child is so healthy on formula!
Most people of my generation were raised on formula and were healthy babies who grew upto be healthy children and are now healthy adults.
Wai didn't mean to criticise mothers who use formula, she was just presenting her research into all kinds of cooked and processed food which of course can all be very harmful. However lots of children are raised on the junkiest deadliest diets imaginable with many toxic substances and are completely healthy. The human body is amazing in its ability to adapt to whatever poisons we throw at it.
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Post by CurlyGirl »

HJG,

You say that your friend has severe postnatal depression because she has to use formula to feed her baby, i.e. she has been 'bullied' by 'breast-is-best' pronouncements into a state of depression and inadequacy. You seem so confident in making this strong causal connection. Yet, there are many other reasons for postnatal depression, including the fact that our society leaves a new mother alone (mostly without community support) during one of the most difficult adjustment periods of her life, not to mention the fact that her high levels of 'happy' hormones during pregnancy have suddenly plummeted down to their normal levels right after the birth (which can easily affect one's mood negatively). You don't seem to consider this whole range of contributing factors, yet you are appealing to us to 'give mothers a break and be realistic.'

The reality in this society is that many women are seduced into thinking that formula milk is no different from breastmilk and that there are no disadvantages to its use. Of course, we are delighted for you that your son seems to be thriving on breastmilk! As one of our members - Sarah - said in an earlier post, that is a blessing. A double blessing, even. But Wai's article, I believe, was not intended to alienate new mothers and inspire guilt in them. It was intended to caution against a blithe acceptance that the makers of formula milk know everything there is to know about nourishing a newborn human infant. I myself was raised on soy formula which created all sorts of health problems both in my infancy and to this day, so I am indeed wary of formula-propaganda. Also, I am keenly aware of the work being done by the Baby Milk Campaign to promote the benefits of breastfeeding to mothers in Malawi and Zambia - mothers who have been told by corporations like Nestlé that formula is superior, that it gives them the status of 'rich white women', that the food produced by their own bodies could not possibly be as good for their babies' development as the tinned products of a powerful global corporation. So this is where I am coming from, in this 'debate'.

So many women appear to see nursing as a metaphor for being a good mother, which causes them such anguish! Yet, no-one on this forum is denying that a loved baby can do very well on formula. I would, in trying to sympathise with you HJG, go so far as to say that La Leche League does often come across as a strident bunch of lactation fascists who believe in lactation in the same way as some people believe in Christian redemption. Nursing is not a moral imperitive, and in the age of formula milk it is not even a biological imperative. But it still shocks me that, in the U.S. for example, only one in five mothers breastfeeds her baby by the time the infant is 6 months old (and only half of all mothers ever breastfeed their babies at all). Articles like Wai's, in my view, hope to help women realise that, since breastmilk is itself a living organism, no formula maker will EVER replicate it. Breastmilk varies in density and nutrient levels according to the needs of each baby, becoming - for example - one consistency for single babies, and another to suit twins better. Babies who have not been breastfed have a greater risk of developing allergies, dental cavities, infections, and chronic conditions like asthma and heart disease. Mothers and babies who are nursing share the same REM sleep cycles, and thus function like one, continually interacting, merged organism. This is not to say that a mother can never bond with her child properly if she feeds him/her with formula, of course not! It is simply to say that women who would otherwise not have considered breastfeeding (for reasons of vanity, social pressure, whatever) should think twice about putting their children on formula.

And the women, like you HJG, who have no choice other than to put their babies on formula, should just get on with it and love their babies and not feel guilty! The only time I would expect a woman to become so defensive in this matter is if she had decided out of vanity NOT to breastfeed (one wonders, why a woman like that is having a baby in the first place). So, HJG, enjoy your son, you have all our best wishes and our full blessing.
HJG

Post by HJG »

Thanks for the reply Curlygirl. I didn't mean to imply that PND is only caused by the formula but having spoken to my friend, it's certainly a factor. And thanks for the support, but giving me your BLESSING?! ha ha! I'm bowing out of this discussion now, it's just too militant!!
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Post by RRM »

yeah...
Viva Che!!!
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Last edited by RRM on Thu 06 Apr 2006 19:38, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by CurlyGirl »

Come, revolution! Anarchists of the world unite!! :wink:
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Re: Breast Feeding

Post by johndela1 »

HJG wrote:Ref John Dela1
It's ridiculous to consider giving milk from another human simply because who on earth would do it?!
That is the reason why it is ridiculuos? I don't think I see that as a good argument. That is like anwering a why is something so by saying -because-

but I will try to reply...

with your logic, you say it is ridicoulus simply because you feel that no one does it. I am correctly understanding you?

If so, I can prove to you that many people do it. Would that change the way you feel? (I dno't think so)

Would you give a child cow milk? if so, how is that any better than giving them milk from a different host (at least the same species)

I'm not a hippy in a commune and dont' appreciate your accusational stance. You seem to be putting me down. I have nothing against communal living by the way, it is just not for me.

buy back to the point... I was hopping for a reason why you think it is wrong to give milk to a baby from a different woman. Maybe a health related reason not just a answer like you gave. Something a little more non opinionistic.

Let's try to keep this a civil debate , ok? I'm not being aggresive. If I came accross that way, I didnt' mean to and will try to be more sensitive.

It doesn't even matter if people on bottles turn out fine, we are talking about what is the best solution, why compromise. I hope we can agree that breast milk is what nature intended and is the best soultion to feeding a newborn.

Can we agree on that?
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Post by Bambi726 »

...who on earth would do it?!
http://milkshare.birthingforlife.com/

With all due respect, three months on formula is not enough to tell if formula will do a baby any harm for the rest of his/her life. Depending on the formula, any ill effects may show up later in life, and especially if soy formula is being used they may show up at puberty, or cause an early/late puberty and hormonal difficulties. It may not even be that the person isn't healthy, it may be that they aren't optimally healthy, which I assume would be every mother's desire. The difference may also only be reflected in a child's IQ, or whether or not they'll need glasses later in life. This also very much depends upon the nutrition of the mother - if a mother is deficient in a certain nutrient, then her baby will be as well, even if that baby is breastfed, so mother's nutrition is very important.

Even if you were only able to breastfeed for the first month, which is much better than not being able to at all, then there are options that are much better for baby than commercial/cooked formulas. Babies aren't meant to eat cooked foods, so a mostly raw, whole (especially animal) foods diet would be most beneficial for a growing baby. I kindly suggest that you do some more research on what may be the very best for your child, because what you find may surprise you, and you may understand where Wai is coming from with her objection of commercial cooked baby formulas. If I could suggest anything to read before you decide to continue feeding your baby formula it would be the articles here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/children/index.html

If your baby is happier because of a more appropriate diet, then the baby won't be crying when you need to lay them down to accomplish something, and then you will have time to create a formula that will really do great things for your baby's health and well-being.

Best wishes,
Amber
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Post by Oscar »

Very well said John.

I think our transient guest HJG already left the thread and forum, overwhelmed by our aggressive and militant reaction to her shy and polite way of starting a discussion. Also the blatantly offensive blessing by CurlyGirl must've helped scare her away. Too bad!

If she would ever read this thread again, I would like to offer my apologies for the behavior of my forum members. And I'm no hair better, I'm afraid... ;)
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Post by CurlyGirl »

John, Amber, Oscar - hear, hear!

When I have my fifteen babies... at least!... then anyone who needs breastmilk (from a healthy, hormonally-balanced, pesticide-free source) can contact me for supplies!

And when I finally become a midwife, it will be compulsory for all the women in my care to breastfeed their children for at least a year!

There goes my midwifery practice down the drain... HJG and her friends will stage a boycott :wink:
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