amino acids.. to replace whey protein

How to prevent unwanted weightloss, and/or even gain muscles
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RRM
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Re: amino acids.. to replace whey protein

Post by RRM »

Iris wrote:RRM, do theses maximums apply to everyone, or does it differ per person?
They (health-wise) apply to everyone, but whey protein etc contain little methionine, so dont worry.
now those big red buckets no-xplode.....
Acne you mean?
Iris
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Re: amino acids.. to replace whey protein

Post by Iris »

RRM wrote:
now those big red buckets no-xplode.....
Acne you mean?
No, these: http://www.vitaservice.nl/product/NO_Xp ... _Nutrition I thought most of you know what it is, sorry.
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Post by RRM »

Ah, okay. They dont contain any methionine at all, but im sure they work well for your brother.
Dont try to convince him; he's now focussed on his muscles. Maybe later? (alles op z'n tijd, iris)
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Post by Iris »

Thank you, RRM. Your help, and that of everyone else offcourse, means a lot to me!
silviya
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Proteins Help

Post by silviya »

Ok i have few questions regarding proteins too.
I am 5 10 tall female 110 weight. ;)
I am going on Wai Diet as of right now, but i really am worry for not loosing more weight since i am desperately trying to gain weight. Though i have acne and i hate it so i am determine to get rid of it.

So with that said, i read the whole discussion here where it is 100% safe to use those two proteins listed. Though my brother is somewhat professional body builder and he told me that those two alone wont do much good since there are 20+ amino acids that all need to exits in your body.

So my question is by taking those two recommended here will that help me gain weight or prevent loosing weight?

And also do we need those that my brother said the mixed once where it has all the amino acids? or just the two listed here are enough?

I just really want to do all i can to gain 10 15 pounds and stay Acne Free
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Post by Iris »

You don't need supplements at all to maintain you body weight. All you need to do is eat very frequently just a few bites. Use the nutrient calculator to make sure you consume enough energy, and you'll be fine! Really! More nutrients is not always better you know :wink: It is very likely you'll be gaining weight naturally on this diet. Listen to your body, and make sure it doesn't have to eat it's own muscles (for energy, because you don't provide it with enough energy. In other words: you don't eat enough)
You read about people losing weight here a lot because most people are overweight. When they start eating Wai, their body starts to shed off this extra weight. This is very natural. But for you, it is very natural to be gaining weight when you start this diet, as you are underweight. This is how your body works. Your body wants to be healthy, and when you provide it with what it needs (Wai food, and always when you need it!!!), it will automatically get at it's set-point weight. You don't need protein pills to do that! Even when you would take those pills, you can still loose weight when you don't eat enough...

To answer your question about the protein. Your brother is right there are a lot more amino acids needed to build muscle. The point is, you already consume all other AA's needed. Except those 2. So when you supplement those, the protein quality of the foods you eat is much higher at once (as the overall protein quality is equal to the weakest link)
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Thank You

Post by silviya »

Thank You Iris, very encouraging,
I will try to eat a lot of fruits :) like eating all the time :)
Rivera
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Post by Rivera »

RRM wrote:
Thomas wrote:What kind of improved gains can you expect from 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine?
When you consume little protein?
A lot.
Thats because you then may consume only 400 or 800 mg methionine daily, and then 1,000 mg extra means A LOT extra; as if you triple the consumption of salmon.
Clearly, if your needs are 60gr proteins per day, you want to gain muscles but you can eat only 40gr per day. This supplement would be like adding how much proteins?
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote:... you want to gain muscles but you can eat only 40gr per day...
Im extremely susceptible to acne, and i can tolerate about 64 grams of protein in total.
Keep in mind, this includes protein from fruits as well.
I will give you an example of what i ate today (sugar and oil excluded):

133 grams of tuna
2 medium bananas
1 hass avocado
6 tomatoes (actually 12 very small cherry tomatoes)
1 cucumber
3000 ml of orange juice

This contains:
63.6 grams of protein
1.062 grams of methionine
0.638 grams of cysteine
Thomas wrote:What kind of improved gains can you expect from 1,000 mg methionine maximally and 500 mg phenylalanine?
With the diet of above in mind, then the total would be:
2.062 grams of methionine
0.638 grams of cysteine
The average of methionine / cysteine would be: 1.350 g.

This would have the same effects as consuming 244 grams of tuna
instead of only 133 grams.
Given that you consume the same amounts of fruits,
this diet would contain:
87.5 grams of protein
1.739 grams of methionine
0.960 grams of cysteine
The average of methionine / cysteine would be: 1.349 g.

So, the difference is 111 grams of tuna,
containing 23.9 grams of protein.
Rivera wrote:if your needs are 60gr proteins per day, you want to gain muscles but you can eat only 40gr per day. This supplement would be like adding how much proteins?
But, indeed, if my skin could tolerate consuming only 40 grams of protein,
I would only be able to consume 23 grams of tuna daily.
Then the diet would contain:

40.0 grams of protein
0.391 grams of methionine
0.319 grams of cysteine

and with the 1,000 mg Met and 500 mg Phe from the supplement added,
it would be:
1.391 grams of methionine
0.319 grams of cysteine
The average of methionine / cysteine would be: 0.855 g.

which equals the effect of consuming 134 grams of tuna,
instead of only 23 grams daily,
containing:

63.8 grams of protein
1.068 grams of methionine
0.641 grams of cysteine
The average of methionine / cysteine would be: 0.854 g.

So, the difference is (again, of course) 111 grams of tuna,
containing 23.9 grams of protein.
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Post by Rivera »

So if I understand well, you advice to take just methionine and phenylalanine because in the food we have already eaten, we got the other amino acids in enough quantity? Or maybe even more than we need?
So it would mean that when you eat 40 gr of proteins, you'll get the quantity of some amino acids contained in ~65 gr of proteins?
But because some others are lacking, you cannot use them all properly? Am I right?
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote:So if I understand well, you advice to take just methionine and phenylalanine because in the food we have already eaten, we got the other amino acids in enough quantity? Or maybe even more than we need?
Yes.
All other essential amino acids are over-represented.
Phenylalanine and tyrosine just a little, so that this couple will start to be the scarcest amino acids once you start supplementing more than 500 mg of only methionine / cystein.
In the Wai diet, lysine, valine and leucine are most superflously present.
A bit less, but still overly present are tryptophan, isoleucine and threonine.
So it would mean that when you eat 40 gr of proteins, you'll get the quantity of some amino acids contained in ~65 gr of proteins?
Yes, and that extra ~25 gram equals tuna protein, not fruit protein (which is lower quality).
But because some others are lacking, you cannot use them all properly? Am I right?
Huh?
Do you mean some other amino acids lacking in that ~65 gram?
No.
There are no 'others' lacking. All those other essential amino acids
(lysine, valine, leucine, tryptophan, isoleucine and threonine, plus all the
non-essential amino acids) are still overly represented.
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Post by Rivera »

RRM wrote:Huh?
Do you mean some other amino acids lacking in that ~65 gram?
No.
There are no 'others' lacking. All those other essential amino acids
(lysine, valine, leucine, tryptophan, isoleucine and threonine, plus all the
non-essential amino acids) are still overly represented.
I mean "because some others (like methionine and phenylalanine) are lacking, you cannot use them all properly?"

I saw in older posts, you talked about some Liquid Free Amino Acids supplements but almost all links are dead. Since that time, did you find some new you would recommend?
Regarding health, liquid free amino acid are ok on the long term?
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote: I mean "because some others (like methionine and phenylalanine) are lacking, you cannot use them all properly?"
Yes, normally, most of the protein cannot be used for reconstruction purposes,
simply because there is not enough methionine present.
Supplementing methionine enables your body to utilize much more of it,
until also additional phenylalanine is required to utilizeeven more of it.
I saw in older posts, you talked about some Liquid Free Amino Acids supplements but almost all links are dead. Since that time, did you find some new you would recommend?
No, i have not been looking anymore.
Regarding health, liquid free amino acid are ok on the long term?
Yes these ones are absolutely safe, but not beyond these amounts (1000 mg and 500 mg)
because if you do, then you may get an imbalance (and methionine is converted in other compounds).
Be aware, however, that you certainly cannot take just any amino acid.
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Post by Rivera »

Yes these ones are absolutely safe, but not beyond these amounts (1000 mg and 500 mg)
because if you do, then you may get an imbalance (and methionine is converted in other compounds).
Be aware, however, that you certainly cannot take just any amino acid.
On the other topic about this, someone said: "Don't take methionine if you have a mercury load in your body (high levels of mercury), as it is a thiol that binds readily with mercury, causing a host of problems."
What do you think about this?

We need proteins for gain muscle size but is it the same for strength/power? If we get just 30 or 40 gr per day, would it be enough for strength gains? Or surely, we won't lift heavier if we don't add more proteins?
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Post by RRM »

Rivera wrote:someone said: "Don't take methionine if you have a mercury load in your body (high levels of mercury), as it is a thiol that binds readily with mercury, causing a host of problems."
What do you think about this?
Its true, mercury readily binds with methionine.
Of course we should prevent a build up of mercury.
Methionine however, is essential. We need it.
This diet contains relatively little protein, so that we ingest relatively little methionine.
By taking extra methionine, we would only compensate for that lower intake of methionine.
On a normal diet people generally consume at least 100 grams of protein.
We need proteins for gain muscle size but is it the same for strength/power?
More muscle is more power.
Strength however, is functional power, depending on to what extend you can utilize that power.
If you got enormous biceps for example, it doesnt at all mean you are good at lifting stuff, or punching.
It just means that you are good at doing that biceps curl.
Strength very much depends on functional exercises, but of course also on muscle strength (and protein).
If we get just 30 or 40 gr per day, would it be enough for strength gains? Or surely, we won't lift heavier if we don't add more proteins?
30 or 40 is very little.
Depending on protein quality, your build, and your activities, it may be enough for some.
But surely not enough for maintaining a little bit extra muscle mass.
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