Commerce & Credibility

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Kasper
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Commerce & Credibility

Post by Kasper »

So, buy supplements from Mercola ("MK7"), and you are safe.
I do think mercola is a honest guy. I have learned many things from him to have increased the quality of my life (foundation training, earthing, vitamin D etc.).
He does sell supplements, but if he was only interested in making money, he would be a really bad salesman.
He always tells that you should consider getting vitamin/minerals from food instead of supplements, and his advice to limit proteins is the worst you can think of if you want to sell protein powders.
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RRM
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by RRM »

He always tells that you should consider getting vitamin/minerals from food instead of supplements
... he would be a really bad salesman
Which makes him look like an honest guy, and then he advocates and sells the supplements.
And still people think he is an honest guy. Seems a very good salesman to me.
Kasper
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by Kasper »

Which makes him look like an honest guy, and then he advocates and sells the supplements.
And still people think he is an honest guy. Seems a very good salesman to me.
This is totally off-topic, but as mercola is not able to defend himself to those insunuations, I find it important that someone else does that.

Okay, let assume you're right. He's trying to act honest, but in fact he is only trying to increase sales.
This makes sense in some extend, but there is one thing that doesn't make sense to me.
For years, he advocated the health effects of (raw) proteins. Which I think has helped him to sell a lot of (raw) protein powders.
Many people believe in the benefits of proteins, so it's a good strategy, sounds honest, and sales good.
Why would a good salesman change this very good strategy ? Not any reason for this.

But he changed his view in regard to proteins recently. Now he advocates to limit protein in some extend.
This is a very dumb thing, if you are only trying to increase sales, you can't deny that.
Besides that, chaning your view so dramatically is a very bad for your credibility.
To me this shows he values begin honest very highly, much higher then making money.
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by RRM »

Kasper wrote:For years, he advocated the health effects of (raw) proteins. Which I think has helped him to sell a lot of (raw) protein powders.
Many people believe in the benefits of proteins, so it's a good strategy, sounds honest, and sales good.
Why would a good salesman change this very good strategy ? Not any reason for this.[
You are very much underestimating the scrutiny involved in doing bussiness.
When money is at stake, people do anything to hang on, or increase their share.
Properly marketing their brand / their 'credibility' is a BIG part of doing bussiness.
What you and i see, is the result. (him stopping to sell protein powders)
What we dont see, is the real reasons why bussiness people make certain decisions.
Companies have entire departments dedicated to 'selling' their strategy.
A good salesman makes it look like he is dealing out of honesty.
We will never know the true reason.
Maybe, the protein powder did not sell well.
Maybe he came accross too much evidence that protein powder is not that good,
that he knew he had to change his strategy to maintain his credibility.
Besides that, chaning your view so dramatically is a very bad for your credibility.
There are books written about this subject.
Sometimes its much better for your credibility to change your view dramatically,
than to hang on to something that is going to appear to be outdated soon.
Its called: "leaving a sinking ship before its too late".
To me this shows he values begin honest very highly, much higher then making money.
In that view, to you Lance Armstrong may seem to value honesty over money.
Didnt he radically change his story?
Something that will make him lose a lot of money?
He must be valueing honesty very, very much...
Kasper
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by Kasper »

What you and i see, is the result. (him stopping to sell protein powders)
He still sells protein powders. But if you follow his recommendations you wouldn't order it.
Maybe he came across too much evidence that protein powder is not that good,
that he knew he had to change his strategy to maintain his credibility.
It's not only about protein powder, he recommends cutting back on all sources of protein.
The thing is, if you read comments at his website, many people really disagree with his new view on protein.
Sometimes its much better for your credibility to change your view dramatically,
than to hang on to something that is going to appear to be outdated soon.
Its called: "leaving a sinking ship before its too late".
Protein is not at all a sinking ship. Really you can't deny the fact that this is not a smart move at all financially.
In that view, to you Lance Armstrong may seem to value honesty over money.
Didnt he radically change his story?
Something that will make him lose a lot of money?
He must be valueing honesty very, very much...
This is a very bad comparison. Lance Amstrong knew that what he was telling was false.
Mercola believed in the benefits of proteins, and now he believes that it is healthier too eat less protein.
Two completely different things.
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by RRM »

Kasper wrote:Mercola believed in the benefits of proteins, and now he believes that it is healthier too eat less protein.
Ha ha, how do you know that?
You are just making a whole bunch of assumptions again.
You are very much underestimating how much conscious planning goes into
advocating stuff on a commercial website.
Image is everything, particularly in America.
Believe whatever you want to believe.
Really you can't deny the fact that this is not a smart move at all financially.
Actually, i already did.
Image is a strategy. You need to preserve you image of honesty to sell better,
and put your chips on the most promising bussiness,
leaving behind what may damage your reputation, and eventually your sales.
Its not just short term thinking.
Its about strategy. Doing bussiness is about careful planning.
And again: image is everything. The money will follow.
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by Kasper »

Ha ha, how do you know that?
You are just making a whole bunch of assumptions again.
I know I do and so do you.
It seems like that you make the assumption that everybody who sells something can't be trusted.
I don't believe in that assumption.

Another example is danny roddy, or artour (from normalbreathing.com).
I don't say that they are right on every aspect, but I do believe they are honest, they wan't to sell things they believe in are true.
How do I know that? (or better, why do I believe that?)
For example, all the things Danny Roddy write in his book (hair like a fox), you can find somewhere on his website for free.
That is not a really goods strategy either. Shows to me he is more interested in sharing his message then making money.
Exact same is true with artour.
Its not just short term thinking.
Its about strategy. Doing bussiness is about careful planning.
Okay, I understand that, but you assume that there must be a long term financial benefit of this, I can't think of any.
If someday people will find out that restricting protein is beneficial (maybe in 10 years?), he could change his recommendations then.
At this moment, most people believe the opposite.
dime
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by dime »

Kasper wrote: For example, all the things Danny Roddy write in his book (hair like a fox), you can find somewhere on his website for free.
That is not a really goods strategy either. Shows to me he is more interested in sharing his message then making money.
Exact same is true with artour.
Actually it's a great strategy, very very common all over the internet. You need to have some content on your website, some "hook" for customers, something for google to index, and so on, there are countless reasons for why he would put parts of his book out there for free. Everything you see on these websites or that these gurus do is with the goal to potentially maximize profit.
Listen to these interviews, so you can put things in better perspective: http://www.entrepreneurs-journey.com/10 ... classroom/
overkees
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by overkees »

That RRM offers all this information for free is not the way it usually goes. Does that make RRM credible? Not necessarily.

You guys seem to give the impression that someone who is trying to also make some money is always a scammer and tells lies. I think both can coexist perfectly fine, certainly in the case of artour. They really believe in something and they must also make a living and they think they can combine this. There is nothing wrong with that.

And is the case with artour, almost all the infoirmation is online and he really wants his message to be read. Thats what he's in it for. The money is just to make a living, I don't think he's a very rich guy or a very smart salesman or anything..
dime
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by dime »

They are all scammers, at minimum because
- Artour copy-pastes Buteyko
- Danny Rody copy-pastes Ray Peat
- Mercola copy-pastes whatever he finds around? I don't know much about him

None of them has done anything original, all they have done is taken someone elses work, and formatted it in a smart way that is sure to be more appealing than the original i.e. more profitable.
Otherwise no, I have no problem if someone is making money for something they have done themselves.
It's as if I took RRMs work, formatted it nicely in an ebook "one month to acne-free", and start selling it.. and then you would think I'm honest and really want to help people because I've come up with a story of how I had the worst acne ever and fixed them with exactly the method in the book.
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by Kasper »

- Artour copy-pastes Buteyko
Not true: http://www.normalbreathing.com/aaa-contributions.php
- Mercola copy-pastes whatever he finds around? I don't know much about him
This is kind of true I guess, he don't seem to make up his own theories.
Actually it's a great strategy, very very common all over the internet. You need to have some content on your website, some "hook" for customers, something for google to index, and so on, there are countless reasons for why he would put parts of his book out there for free. Everything you see on these websites or that these gurus do is with the goal to potentially maximize profit.
I think you didn't understand me. I wasn't talking about part of his book out there for free. I was talking about that ALL the parts of his book are (in a not very structured way) out there for free somewhere on his website. The normal strategy is to put part of it online for free and they write something like:
"This BIG SECRET you can only find in his AMAZING ebook, you can't find ANYWHERE else."
Right ?
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RRM
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by RRM »

Kasper wrote:I wasn't talking about part of his book out there for free. I was talking about that ALL the parts of his book are (in a not very structured way) out there for free somewhere on his website. The normal strategy is to put part of it online for free and they write something like:
"This BIG SECRET you can only find in his AMAZING ebook, you can't find ANYWHERE else."
Right ?
The latter (part of it) is the least sophisticated way to do it.
The former (entirely, but scattered) is a bit more sophisticated way to do it.
The honest way (with intergrity) to do it would be: publish the entire book online,
in a way that its very easy to read in the proper order, and offer it for sale for those who want a hard copy anyway.
overkees wrote:You guys seem to give the impression that someone who is trying to also make some money is always a scammer and tells lies.
I think both can coexist perfectly fine, certainly in the case of artour. They really believe in something and they must also make a living and they think they can combine this. There is nothing wrong with that.
Actually, there is. We are all humans, and in humans, money corrupts.
If you are selling something, you get income from it.
You will start to depend on that income, as you will adapt your way of living.
As soon as that happens, you will need to preserve that income.
This will influence what you advocate / publish as free info.
Your integrity will be compromised, at least to some extend.
The moment you start accepting some money, you are losing your independence.
Maybe not physically, but at least it affects your decision making.
Commerce and information should always be separated, totally.
Even without commerce, every individual giving information is already biased enough.
(influenced by his/her reputation, status etc.)
overkees
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by overkees »

I don't think that money corrupts if you invest that money in things that serve a greater cause. It goes with a sense of believe, and guys like artour from normalbreathing are helping alot of people very effectively. He has even got a program for people who don't have money, are very ill, but still require his help. He offers them free or very low price sessions via webcams and skype.

An example why money is not bad: Like if you had published the wai diet, you might had enough money for rat studies, which might have helped alot of people in going for the wai diet and helping improving their health and well-being.
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by RRM »

overkees wrote:He has even got a program for people who don't have money, are very ill, but still require his help.
Yes, and Shell promotes environmentally friendly projects, saves seal puppies etc.
All big (and lots of smaller) corporations do this kind of stuff.
As i said, they have entire departments dedicated to creating the desired image.
An example why money is not bad
I am not saying that money is bad.
Im saying that money corrupts.
If you are going to ask money, you need to preserve that income.
If i was making money from the Wai diet, you and Kasper would have been banned a long time ago. ;D
dime
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Re: Commerce & Credibility

Post by dime »

RRM wrote: I am not saying that money is bad.
Im saying that money corrupts.
If you are going to ask money, you need to preserve that income.
Exactly. I doubt that kasper and overkees can truly understand as you guys are still students. It's a different situation when you're on your own with a family to take care of, etc, and you're an enterpreneur.

Artour is probably best of the bunch, he's certified Buteyko teacher so let's say it's perfectly valid that he's teaching the Buteyko method and getting payed for it. But then he goes on to write books about gut health for example, while having probably zero credibility on the topic. Gut health is such a hot topic on the internet for the past few years with everyone randomly connecting any health problems they have to bad digestive system, and he's taking good advantage of it.
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