Lacking energy before lacking nutrients?

[Kookaburra]

(EDIT) This thread was split off from another thread (/EDIT)

I thought the Wai diet provides all the nutrients that you need even though your calorie intake is lower.

No, its based on adequate energy intake.

Sorry I should have search the book before assuming.

From the free book page 20:

Comparing minimal requirements for essential amino acids to fruitamino
acid contents, it appears that even if you ate only different fruits and some Brazil nuts,
you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein.

I mistook protein for nutrients. Having said that, take a look at this quote from the wiki article on Very low calorie diet:

Very low calorie diet (VLCD) is a diet with very or extremely low calorie consumption per day. It is defined medically as a diet of 800 kilocalories per day or less. VLCDs are formulated, nutritionally complete, liquid meals containing 800 calories or less per day. VLCDs also contain the recommended daily requirements for vitamins, minerals, trace elements, fatty acids and protein.

It contradicts your view that without adequate energy intake, one cannot meet all the required nutrients.

Calorie restriction without malnutrition[1] has been shown to improve age-related health and to slow the aging process in a wide range of animals and some fungi.

Yes, i know.
But is says: "without malnutrition".
If you keep on losing weight, thats malnutrition.
The reason why it slows down aging, is because it slows down cell replication.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2613

Calorie restriction is bound to make you lose weight.

From the wiki article on calorie restriction:

Several studies conducted in this sense revealed that dieters who restricted calories for 12 months had lower muscle mass

According to you, if you lose weight, that's malnutrition. Then in that case, calorie restriction without malnutrition cannot happen at all which is not true.

[panacea]

If you keep losing weight it's malnutrition and bad, calorie restriction is ideally supposed to make you lose excess weight, mass that you don't neccesarily need. if you keep losing and losing you're suffering from malnutrition and your body is atrophying and suffering, not good.

[RRM]

Exactly.

It is defined medically as a diet of 800 kilocalories per day or less.
VLCDs are formulated, nutritionally complete, liquid meals containing 800 calories or less per day.

It contradicts your view that without adequate energy intake, one cannot meet all the required nutrients.

Was i talking about VLCDs?
Or was i talking about the Wai diet?

[Kookaburra]

Ok, let's return to talking about the Wai diet. Even with inadequate energy intake, I thought the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

[Kookaburra]

Regarding this sentence especially the bolded part from the free book page 20:

Comparing minimal requirements for essential amino acids to fruit amino acid contents, it appears that even if you ate only different fruits and some Brazil nuts, you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein.

From the nutrient calculator website.

RDA: FDA Men, 19-24yr (177cm/70in, 72kg/160lb)

Your selection:
[Item 1] 2units of Mango (Magnifera indica L.), [1][2],
[Item 2] 2units of Banana (Musa X paradisiaca), [1],
[Item 3] 2units of Apple (Malus sylvestris), no skin, [1],
[Item 4] 3units of Kiwi (Actinidia chinensis), [1],
[Item 5] 2cups of Orange juice (Citrus sinensis), fresh, not pasteurized, [1][2],
[Item 6] 7units of Brazil nut (Bertholletia excelsa), dried, unblanched,

The total protein is 15.64g(RDA 58.00g). How is that not lacking protein?

[RRM]

Ok, let's return to talking about the Wai diet. Even with inadequate energy intake, I thought the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

This is true for minerals specifically.

Regarding this sentence especially the bolded part from the free book page 20:

Comparing minimal requirements for essential amino acids to fruit amino acid contents, it appears that even if you ate only different fruits and some Brazil nuts, you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein.

This is about how high methionine foods (Brazil nuts) increase protein quality.
This higher quality protein supplies you with more amino acids than a low quality protein,
so that a lower amount of (high quality) protein may be as nutritional as a higher amount of (low quality) protein.
To know whether you get all the required amino acids (protein) from this diet,
you need to compare the ingested amino acids to the minimally required numbers of amino acids.
Thats explained here: http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html

The total protein is 15.64g(RDA 58.00g). How is that not lacking protein?

The RDAs of protein are about average proteins (not taking protein quality into account)
, and they are recommended amounts; not what you need minimally (to not lack protein).
Your selection yields only 1204 kcal, which is way too little.
If one would expand your selection to yielding 3000 kcal, (10 bananas, 2 mangoes, 3 kiwis, 4 apples, 2 L orange juice, 10 Brazil nuts)
this would yield 40 grams of protein, but more importantly, 634 mg methionine and 423 mg cysteine,
which is 528 mg averagely.
80 kg men minimally need 384 mg methionine/cysteine.

What does this mean?
The minimally required protein intake would occur at the energy intake of (384/528)x3000 kcal = 2182 kcal,
which is too little energy for a 80 kg man.
Hence: ...you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein

For more information about this subject:
http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html

[Kookaburra]

Ok, let's return to talking about the Wai diet. Even with inadequate energy intake, I thought the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

This is true for minerals specifically.

This was what you said in another thread:viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2177:

As with the uptake of minerals, the uptake rate of vitamins depends
on the availability of that vitamin in your daily diet.
If you daily consume lots of vitamin c, the uptake rate is very low.
If you consume little vitamin C, the uptake rate is high.

Now you are saying its true for minerals specifically. So I take it as its not true for vitamins? Kinda contradicting.

Regarding this sentence especially the bolded part from the free book page 20:

Comparing minimal requirements for essential amino acids to fruit amino acid contents, it appears that even if you ate only different fruits and some Brazil nuts, you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein.

This is about how high methionine foods (Brazil nuts) increase protein quality.
This higher quality protein supplies you with more amino acids than a low quality protein,
so that a lower amount of (high quality) protein may be as nutritional as a higher amount of (low quality) protein.
To know whether you get all the required amino acids (protein) from this diet,
you need to compare the ingested amino acids to the minimally required numbers of amino acids.
Thats explained here: http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html

Ok, the sentence in the book should instead be 'you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein quality.' to prevent confusion. When I first read it, I thought it meant the quantity/amount of protein and not quality.

The nutrient calculator did not list the amino acids consumed. So I guess I have to calculate manually huh?

The total protein is 15.64g(RDA 58.00g). How is that not lacking protein?

80 kg men minimally need 384 mg methionine/cysteine.

How do I find out how much methionine/cysteine are required for different weight class(40kg, 50kg, 60kg etc)?

[RRM]

I thought the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

This is true for minerals specifically.

This was what you said in another thread: "If you consume little vitamin C, the uptake rate is high".
Now you are saying its true for minerals specifically. So I take it as its not true for vitamins? Kinda contradicting.

I said "specifically". I did not say "only".
Its true for minerals specifically as they are never made by the body.
Many vitamins are made by the body too (B3, B8, K etc), so that when your diet is high in B3, for example,
the body will start producing less of it, so that the uptake rate (from the food) may not change at all.
But yes, its also true for vitamin C, as our body cannot make any vitamin C either.

Ok, the sentence in the book should instead be 'you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein quality.' to prevent confusion.

No, a person cannot lack protein quality.
When protein quality is low, that protein largely lacks methionine, so that the body will miss out on methionine
to build sufficient protein from, so that the body will lack protein.
So, the original sentence is 100% correct.

The nutrient calculator did not list the amino acids consumed. So I guess I have to calculate manually huh?

The easy version calculator does not display methionine and cystein, indeed, http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-calcsimple.html
but the advanced version does. http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-calculator.html

How do I find out how much methionine/cysteine are required for different weight class(40kg, 50kg, 60kg etc)?

http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/nut-fruitprotein.html
Its per weight, so that...
80 kg men need 384 mg methionine / cysteine, minimally
70 kg men need 336 mg
60 kg men need 288 mg
50 kg men need 240 mg
40 kg men need 192 mg

[Kookaburra]

I thought the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

This is true for minerals specifically.

This was what you said in another thread: "If you consume little vitamin C, the uptake rate is high".
Now you are saying its true for minerals specifically. So I take it as its not true for vitamins? Kinda contradicting.

I said "specifically". I did not say "only".
Its true for minerals specifically as they are never made by the body.
Many vitamins are made by the body too (B3, B8, K etc), so that when your diet is high in B3, for example,
the body will start producing less of it, so that the uptake rate (from the food) may not change at all.
But yes, its also true for vitamin C, as our body cannot make any vitamin C either.

Alright, now let's revisit your original statement that without adequate energy intake, one cannot meet all the required nutrients.

I don't understand what's wrong with my reply that the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking? If the body does that, then one definitely does acquire all the required nutrients even without adequate energy.

Say for example, a person only consume 1kg of table sugar. Total energy absorbed is 3870kcal(adequate energy), yet he won't meet all required nutrients as sugar is 'empty calories'.

[RRM]

I don't understand what's wrong with my reply that the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

Because its not true.
Yes, its true for all minerals, but not for protein, fat and sugars.
Thats because it will always try to take up all available protein, fat and sugars (thats why people get fat).
It does so because protein can not just serve as building blocks, it (redundant protein) can also serve as energy (equally so as sugars and fat).
So, the body cannot adjust the protein absorption rate to compensate for a lack of protein in the diet.

Say for example, a person only consume 1kg of table sugar.

The quote that was at issue here, did not mention sugar, at all.
It was about fruits and Brazil nuts:

Comparing minimal requirements for essential amino acids to fruit amino
acid contents, it appears that even if you ate only different fruits and some Brazil nuts,
you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein.

Remember?

[Kookaburra]

I don't understand what's wrong with my reply that the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

Because its not true.
Yes, its true for all minerals, but not for protein, fat and sugars.

Why do you fail to mention vitamins again? I thought vitamins are nutrients? Or to you, minerals include vitamins?

Say for example, a person only consume 1kg of table sugar.

The quote that was at issue here, did not mention sugar, at all.
It was about fruits and Brazil nuts:

Comparing minimal requirements for essential amino acids to fruit amino
acid contents, it appears that even if you ate only different fruits and some Brazil nuts,
you would lack energy before you could possibly lack protein.

Remember?

I was referring to this quote:

I thought the Wai diet provides all the nutrients that you need even though your calorie intake is lower.

No, its based on adequate energy intake.

[Kookaburra]

Also, when you say that 80 kg men need 384 mg methionine / cysteine, to calculate whether I meet the requirements, do i take the amount of methionine divide by cysteine?

The calculator is showing:

-Methionine.....................................0.19085g
-Cysteine.......................................0.18749g

190.85/187.49= 1.017

I am a little confused.

And how did you arrive at the requirements for each weight class? I went to the link but couldn't find any info on that.

[RRM]

I don't understand what's wrong with my reply that the body will increase its absorption rate for every nutrient that is lacking?

Because its not true.
Yes, its true for all minerals, but not for protein, fat and sugars.

Why do you fail to mention vitamins again?

I have mentioned vitamins previously.
Not mentioning vitamins in this particular quote, your reply is still incorrect, as its not true for "every nutrient that is lacking".
Yes, its true for some nutrients (such as many vitamins), but not for some other nutrients (protein, fats and sugars).
(oops, i failed to mention minerals)
Your statement was simply not true for all nutrients.

Say for example, a person only consume 1kg of table sugar.

I was referring to this quote:

I thought the Wai diet provides all the nutrients that you need even though your calorie intake is lower.

Ok.
Well, the Wai diet is not about consuming only 1 kg of sugar...

[RRM]

Also, when you say that 80 kg men need 384 mg methionine / cysteine, to calculate whether I meet the requirements, do i take the amount of methionine divide by cysteine?

No, you take the average.

The calculator is showing:
-Methionine.....................................0.19085g
-Cysteine.......................................0.18749g

In this case you take: (191 mg + 187 mg)/2 = 189.
thats because you need equal amounts of methionine and cysteine,
and methionine can be converted into cysteine (not the other way around)

And how did you arrive at the requirements for each weight class? I went to the link but couldn't find any info on that.

"This has been affirmed through other scientific investigations.
To meet the minimal amino acid requirements, for each kg bodyweight, 0,60 gram (6) ,
respectively 0,51 gram or 0,34 gram (7) potato protein appeared to be sufficient to maintain nitrogen balance."
Its widely accepted that the need for amino acids / protein corresponds with body weight.

[Kookaburra]

Say for example, a person only consume 1kg of table sugar.

I was referring to this quote:

I thought the Wai diet provides all the nutrients that you need even though your calorie intake is lower.

Ok.
Well, the Wai diet is not about consuming only 1 kg of sugar...

Fair enough. Consider this: I eat a bunch of different fruits, a few cups of OJ with OO, and animal food. The calculator says that my energy intake is still not adequate(2500kcal) which also means that I haven't met all the requirements for nutrients. I still need 500kcal to reach adequate energy levels.

I then eat about 150g to 200g of table sugar. Now my energy requirements are met but can that be said for nutrients since sugar is 'empty calories'?