Italians eat a lot of wheat

[Ducky]

Pizza, pasta, bread still they seem to be doing OK.

They dont look like zombies.

[RRM]

Compared to who?
People from other countries eating lots of cooked foods? (incl.beta-carbolines)
All people eating cooked foods seem to do ok, no?
Then it must be ok...

[Ducky]

Compared to other nations they eat a lot more of it. Their culture's staple food is basically wheat.

So they have double or triple doses of wheat plus the beta-carbolines from cooking, still they are not different from any other country's people.

[Oscar]

I think Italians also eat meat, fish, olive oil, drink wine, etc. Not that much different from other countries.
The Dutch eat lots of bread and cheese, and still they beat Spain and Australia

[Aytundra]

Laughs. Now we have the Italian paradox.
Much like the French paradox. Where they eat and eat and eat cake, and are still stylish.

I can hear the new phrase of Italian's Marie Antoinette. "Let them eat wheat!"
vs. French's Marie Antoinette. "Let them eat cake!"

[Aytundra]

Edits:

I can hear the new phrase of Italian's Marie Antoinette saying: "Let them eat pizza!"
vs. French's Marie Antoinette: "Let them eat cake!"

[Iris]

Compared to other nations they eat a lot more of it. Their culture's staple food is basically wheat.

So they have double or triple doses of wheat plus the beta-carbolines from cooking, still they are not different from any other country's people.

What's your point exactly? Not different as in basically unhealthy?

People all over the world eat cooked foods nowadays, and wheat. Also a lot of additives, trans fats, oxysterols and so on. Almost everything you can buy in supermarkets or elsewhere today is prepared or treated one way or the other..... And then we are only talking about the foods people eat.

In my opinion when people on crappy diets still manage to be/seem fairly "healthy" that shows us all the more how strong the human body is, not that the crappy diet is suddenly healthy.

[Iris]

My personal experience regarding wheat is it's a very strong painkiller. In times I experiences a lot of pains my hunger for bread was very high. And while eating it I could feel it in my blood, I could feel it sedated me, really like a drug Back then I felt I really NEEDED it. Just like drugs. So indeed, basically I was an addict. That's how strong the sedating power of wheat is (in my case anyway).

Since humans are eating wheat as their staple food they deteriorated dramatically I think. And I see a lot of zombie-like behaviour actually (though I'm not in Italy).People don't seem to think for themselves and don't want others to ask too much questions so they'd have to. They just want to act like they always did and everybody else does because they were told to do so (by parents, boss, representative of companies etc). Most people act as most people. Most people want other people to act like most people, to act "normal", like everybody else. In the Netherlands we have a saying: "Just act normal, that's crazy enough already". When you don't act "normal" people react with disapproval. And this is only one example.
The same goes for animals. We're forcing all kinds of (carnivorous or omnivorous) animals in captivity to be herbivores It's all wheat, soy and corn, oh and left-overs from our own crappy food chain of course Why do you think dogs are like what dogs are like these days? That's not normal! They're totally apathic! I know a lot of very young dogs who act like they're old and at the end of their lives. But when fed grains, dogs become "better" controllable, and that's more easy Most people don't see this though. They'd have to see what healthy, real normal dogs behave like first to be able to see it. The same applies to humans, I guess...

[Ducky]

My point was that if wheat is really that bad for everybody than it should be like the use drugs = the more you use of it the more one can see the damaging effects of it on you.

That's kind of logical. But I don't see that big of a difference between people eating a lot of it and those who don't consume that much of it.

[Iris]

Besides what RRM said, it's not just wheat. Also dairy, fluoride and all cooked/processed foods. So I wouldn't know of any country where they don't eat or use (in the case of fluoride) any of these at all. So yes, it is very likely you don't see much difference (because everywhere most people eat/use lots of those)

[Ducky]

Let me give you an example.

If somebody only eats cooked meat and vegetables he will only get beta-carbolines. But if he eats only wheat products he will get both beta-carbolines and opioid peptides.

Thus the bad health effects should show up more rapidly.

So if drugs make you dumb these countries on the map below with lower wheat consumption should have higher IQs and be more advanced. But its not the case.

Per Capita Wheat Consumption:
http://chartsbin.com/view/5267

[Aytundra]

@ Ducky, I've wondered about the Italian paradox too for a while. Italians seem so cheery and outgoing. There is a saying that there are only two groups of people on earth. "Those that are Italian, and those that want to be Italian."

Okay Ducky, you have several thoughts going on here.
1) cooked meat and vegetables --> beta-carbolines
2) wheat --> beta-carbolines and opioid peptides
3) drugs --> dumb and low IQ.

Tackles it in reverse:

So if drugs make you dumb these countries on the map below with lower wheat consumption should have higher IQs and be more advanced. But its not the case.

3) drugs --> dumb and low IQ.
All drugs do not map onto dumb or low IQ scores.
If you take nicotine right before an written exam, you will score higher. Because nicotine triggers brain activity. Cigarettes contains nicotine.
Italians eating wheat (or any other human) does not necessarily map on to their brains becoming dumber or lower in IQ.

But if he eats only wheat products he will get both beta-carbolines and opioid peptides.

2) wheat --> beta-carbolines and opioid peptides ; and bad health effects accumulate quickly.
There are actually more stuff in wheat besides beta-carbolines and opioid peptides.
Such as gluten(inhibits absorption in the intestines), oxalates (causing kidney stones), Maillard reaction and Maillard reacted products, probably acrylamides, and heterocyclic amines depending on preparation methods and what the wheat is combined with, usually wheat is eaten with cooked vegetables and meat and dairy as well, adding even more negative.

But how quickly are the negative effects? You think they will show up rapidly:

Thus the bad health effects should show up more rapidly.

But some other people think it takes a while before bad effects shows up. Like a cumulative effect.

If somebody only eats cooked meat and vegetables he will only get beta-carbolines.

1) cooked meat and vegetables --> beta-carbolines
Not necessarily just --> beta-carbolines but a bunch of other stuff. Stuff that might cause cardiac arrest and strokes after a cumulative effect.

[Ducky]

Thanks for your answer but not very convincing.

1. Why do you bring up nicotine? We are not talking about nicotine we are talking about opioid peptides. "The effects of these peptides vary, but they all resemble those of opiates."

2."Italians eating wheat (or any other human) does not necessarily map on to their brains becoming dumber or lower in IQ."
That just completely contradicts what Wai says.
You mean that becoming a "zombie" is equal to becoming smarter?

[Aytundra]

Thanks for your answer but not very convincing.

You are welcome. Me too, I agree my answers are not very convincing ...yet.

1. Why do you bring up nicotine? We are not talking about nicotine we are talking about opioid peptides. "The effects of these peptides vary, but they all resemble those of opiates."

Sometimes some people here refer to eating non-Wai foods as "smoking cigarettes", or eating "zombie foods", or eating "dead lifeless food" and the list goes on... the analogy of "like cigarettes like food" and "zombiefoods" are found on the WaiWorld website, so I think those are general vocabulary.
I was interpreting your thoughts in general.
I thought, you thought, "all types of drugs" equals low IQ and dumbness.

So if drugs make you dumb these countries on the map below with lower wheat consumption should have higher IQs and be more advanced. But its not the case.

"drug(s)"
Plural
I thought you were talking about drugs in general, not only on opioid peptides.
Hence, I tried to show you with nicotine, that not all drugs map onto dumbness, low IQ, or reduced brain activity.

But I think I know now that you are focused on discussing "opioid peptides"; and I think your questions are:
1) How do consuming large amounts opioid peptides cause zombieness? and,
2) Why do the majority of Italians you know not look like zombies (look listless) despite the large amounts of opioid peptides they consume?

2."Italians eating wheat (or any other human) does not necessarily map on to their brains becoming dumber or lower in IQ."
That just completely contradicts what Wai says.
You mean that becoming a "zombie" is equal to becoming smarter?

I did not say that eating wheat makes you smarter.
I mean that eating wheat would not necessarily reduce someone's IQ or make them dumber.

I think you are interpreting the word zombie as someone without brains.
That is a valid interpretation I guess, since some zombies in some movies have no brains, like mummies that have brains removed.

However, Zombie is a fictional word. Fictional words, much like vampires, ghosts, goblins, and witches.
Zombie in essence is a corpse reanimated, and under control by a supernatural power.
Zombies according to the dictionary lists characteristics of: listlessness, mechanical behavior, unattractive person, a corpse so animated, a supernatural power through which a corpse supposedly is brought to a state of trancelike animation and made to obey the commands of the person exercising the power. (Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th ed.)

That says nothing about their IQ or their brains being dumber.
I think WaiSays interpret the word "zombie" as refering to zombies as having the characteristics "apathetic, slow and ignorant".
http://www.waiworld.com/waisays/food/zombiefood.html
Which is much different from saying it lowers IQ or makes consumers of wheat dumber.

[RRM]

If somebody only eats cooked meat and vegetables he will only get beta-carbolines. But if he eats only wheat products he will get both beta-carbolines and opioid peptides.

Its not just wheat, its also cheese, milk etc.
They also contain opioid peptides.
If it would be as simple as wheat vs veggies, you would be right.
But its not that simple.
Less wheat may mean more cheese, or more meat, for example.
Besides wheat, Italians also consume a lot of espresso, which may also compensate for the extra wheat.
So, you cannot narrow it down to just wheat vs veggies.

What exactly is it that you are doubting?
That opioid peptides have a numbing effect?