Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Fasting during the morning and (some part of) the afternoon, eating at night
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Gavriel
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Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by Gavriel »

Hi,
what do you think about the following regime:

Day 1:
Fast all day. Work out. Before going to sleep eat one large meal made of mostly salmon or chicken fully marinated in lemon. make sure to drink the (fatty lemon) juice of the marinade. An egg yolk. The meal can start with some sweetened juice or raw jam, but the main focus of the meal is the easy to digest protein.
Drink water.

Day 2:
Fast all day (some tea ok). Before going to sleep eat a balanced Wai Meal with whole fruits, fats and protein. If you wake up at night eat.

Day 3:
Continue eating a sample diet from morning until early evening (say 18:00). Enjoy whole fruits, some juice, jams, oil.. try to overeat. Have protein intake in your last meal before 6pm.

Day 4: like Day 1...

More concise:
28 hours fast from 6pm the pervious day / work out weight lifting muscle group 1 / protein-centric meal (salmon ceviche) 2 hours before bedtime /
22 hours fast / work out weight lifting muscle group 2 / regular balanced meal before bedtime / (Over-)eat from morning until 18:00 /

Benefits:
* Offers one fasting period of 22 hours and one of 28 hours within three days.
* Allows to experience one day of a regular sample diet (evening meal + eating next day until 6pm); one can enjoy whole fruits and make sure one compensates for the other two Autophage days.
* No extensive juicing is imperatively required.
* Easy to manage also on business trips.
* Includes an especially Calorically Restricted day, followed by a balanced frutarian day, followed by an extended fasting period. To me it resembles more closely a hunter gatherer's regime. Hunt (sport), feast on the prey, sleep, wander calmly to another location? / munch on fruits / insects, starve until next successful hunt..
* If one considers that autophage fully kicks in after ~12 hours of fasting this regimen offers more of the intensive autophage hours (=the hours after the initial 12 hours of fasting) than a daily symmetric regime of a 4 hours eating window: 10 hours intensive autophage the first day (22-12) and 16 hours the second two days (28-12) = 26 intensive autophage hours within three days.. Compared to 3 * (20-12) = 24 hours intensive autophage within three days on the 4 hours daily eating window.
* two workouts in three days (different programs)
I assume however that the autophage intensity is increasing during the first 48 hours of fasting, and so the last hours of the longer 28 hours fasting would be especially effective.

What do you think?
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RRM
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by RRM »

Sounds like a very interesting idea.
Give me some time to digest it... :)
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by RRM »

Well, im doing fitness for physical appearance (not for 'fitness') (see my webpage and my instagram account)
and when i fast too long during just one day, i lose too much muscle mass, annihilating the work done.
So, if you want to maintain your muscle mass above set-point weight, the one day fast does not work out.
But if you just want to maintain your set-point weight, its perfectly fine.
The autophagic effects will be more extensive on the proposed schedule indeed, so more beneficial regarding health and life extension.
So, your schedule is superior.
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by Gavriel »

Hmm.. is there something that can be consumed during the longer fast that does not stop autophagy but will help protect muscle tissue?
Tea? :-/
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by Oscar »

Gavriel wrote: Tue 28 Feb 2017 23:17 Tea? :-/
:lol:
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by RRM »

Gavriel wrote: Tue 28 Feb 2017 23:17 Hmm.. is there something that can be consumed during the longer fast that does not stop autophagy but will help protect muscle tissue?
Tea? :-/
Unfortunately, no. Both sugar and protein protect muscle tissue, and both stop the autophagy.
To evoke autopghagy regularly and be both muscular and ripped,you need to walk a very thin line.

Some will claim that fats do not stop autophagy and still preserve muscle tissue.
Yes, it is true that burning bodyfat can perfectly coincide with autophagy, but if you eat dietary fats aiming to preserve muscle tissue, you will use the glycerol from the triglycerides to create a sugar influx. And glycerol is a sugar, stopping autophagy.
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by Gavriel »

I see, well assuming that autophagy is not a global "on/off button" in the body,
I am trying to find out whether the prolonged fasting (28 hours) could transition (towards the end and at the point in time where I would normally start loosing too much muscle tissue) into a calorically restricted fat intake.
I know there are tribes that eat very sparingly on purpose for many days preparing for a feast that includes sex with anything that moves, euphoric rituals and endless food food food
or maybe it was just my imagination? haha
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by Gavriel »

RRM, you have this invaluable unique talent to describe in a few words very complex interdependencies.
May I ask you please in this case to describe more in detail what exactly happens in the body when after say 20 hours of fasting I take in a very small amount of fat (and a separate description what happens when intaking a tiny amount of sugar)?
What I am (probably naively) assuming is that, whatever the exact sugar/ketons-creating mechanism is — given that there is not enough sugar to stop autophagy everywhere where it is already fully underway — the body will have a defined principle where to "send" this sugar first.
For example, it could be that this little available sugar after a long fast is sent to the most "autophaged" tissues, or to the most catabolized muscles, or first to the brain (probably not since ketones will be available).
Obviously, I have no real idea what I am talking about here, but common sense commands that the "body" must have a well defined priority here, and if we knew it we could design a longer fasting period that is divided into two phases:
Phase 1 – 0% calories
Phase 2 - very little calories from taken in a specific way (one time or often, from fat only or sugar)
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by RRM »

Bodyfat is 25% sugar (glycerol), just as dietary triglycerides.
Not coincidentally, our energy needs are also about 25% sugar when only very moderately active.
As long as you are not active, the energy from bodyfat is adequate. Only when you start being more active, the body will need more sugars for energy than your bodyfat can supply. That is because fatty acids are a very efficient source of energy (9 kcal / gram vs 4 kcal / gram for sugar), but you need a lot of oxygen to burn them.
All that oxygen cannot sufficiently be supplied when you suddenly start climbing stairs, for example. That is when your body turns to the use of sugars for energy. And if the spare sugar is finished (empty liver glycogen, or a local lack of muscle glycogen), your body starts to implement autophagy, and the use of protein for energy. That is why physical activity is as healthy as fasting is; they both evoke autophagy.
After the fasting window, your liver glycogen is empty, and also some of your muscle glycogen will be depleted, particularly the muscles you exercised.
what exactly happens in the body when after say 20 hours of fasting I take in a very small amount of fat (and a separate description what happens when intaking a tiny amount of sugar)?
Basically, the effect is the same.
If you take in a very small amount of energy from fat, the dietary fatty acids will simply replace the fatty acids used from bodyfat. The glycerol will mostly be used to replenish some of the liver glycogen. After that, the body will continue the autophagy.
Basically the same goes for taking in some sugars; the sugars will be used to replenish some of the liver glycogen.
So, the effects are basically the same; a small bit of liver glycogen is replenished.
As a result, autophagy will be temporarily halted, until liver glycogen is exhausted again.

But what are the effects on the muscles if the bedtime meal consists of mostly protein? (day 1)
The muscles exercised will be deprived of sugars to replenish lost muscle glycogen. As a result, there will be no muscle growth in response to the exercise. Actually, the result will be a decrease in muscle mass, as muscles are damaged by exercise (microfractures). The protein consumed will merely replenish blood amino acid levels, which had diminished due to the fasting.

The effects of day 2 will not be very much different, as the sugars from the whole fruits are likely insufficient to fully replenish all lost glycogen.
It is known that muscles only grow when ample glucose is available within the first minutes after exercise, up till 2 hours after the exercise.
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by RRM »

So, i would suggest only to work out if ample protein and sugars are available immediately after the exercise, up till hours later (it may take a few hours to replenish muscle glycogen)
Therefore no workout on day 1 and 2. Only on day 3.
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by Gavriel »

Thank you RRM!
But how come then low carb diets produce muscular bodies?
There are people who eat almost only meat and butter and are quite lean and grow huge muscles.
Where does the suficient amount of sugar for muscle growth come from during (and right after) workout?
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Re: Alternative Warrior Regime 28:2 22:20 (Avoiding having to drink many liters of OJ)

Post by RRM »

Gavriel wrote: Wed 01 Mar 2017 22:52 But how come then low carb diets produce muscular bodies?
There are people who eat almost only meat and butter and are quite lean and grow huge muscles.
Where does the suficient amount of sugar for muscle growth come from during (and right after) workout?
Thats because they consume really huge amounts of protein. I did not know you had the same thing in mind (replacing sugars with protein)
In that case, all the glucose comes from glucogenic amino acids.
Most amino acids can be converted into glucose.

But why would you want to replace sugars with protein?
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